How secure is the Lisbon referendum against Fraud?

[jc_ie]

Because it would create the risk that the ballot-boxes would be tampered by one side or the other, or ballot-boxes crammed with yes/no votes being transported to the count-centre.

Where would they get the extra ballots from?
How would they ensure the numbers match the sequence on that partucular box?
How would they fix the Presidning officers report with regard to how many ballot papers were used and not?

And thats without going into the boxes being sealed shut before they leave sight of the presiding officer of that station.

If the tallies and staff at the count centre are even half awake they will spot any of the above being tampered with a mile away.

[FutureTaoiseach]

My God. Not content with libelling people, you now stoop to smearing those involved in the security of the electoral process. You're gone off your f*cking head, mate.

Good grief. Now "processes" can be libelled. In your world anyway. What next? Policies I suppose.

[Papinian]

Where would they get the extra ballots from?
How would they ensure the numbers match the sequence on that partucular box?
How would they fix the Presidning officers report with regard to how many ballot papers were used and not?

And thats without going into the boxes being sealed shut before they leave sight of the presiding officer of that station.

If the tallies and staff at the count centre are even half awake they will spot any of the above being tampered with a mile away.

But are staff at the count centre half awake? Remember in the Euro elections how a few thousand votes were misallocated to Declan Ganley instead of one of the minor candidates. I also remember in the divorce referendum a block of a few thousand votes were misallocated in the Dublin count centre (were No but allocated to Yes). I was there at the time. In both cases the screw-ups were only found because there was a recount.

[Chuck de Mawl]

But are staff at the count centre half awake? Remember in the Euro elections how a few thousand votes were misallocated to Declan Ganley instead of one of the minor candidates. I also remember in the divorce referendum a block of a few thousand votes were misallocated in the Dublin count centre (were No but allocated to Yes). I was there at the time. In both cases the screw-ups were only found because there was a recount.

Yup, in Castlebar count Centre, 3,000 votes belonging to MEP candidate Fiachra O'Luain were allocated to Ganley. Discovered only by recount.
Despite a request formal Garda investigation, there hasn't even been a statement from the returning officer.

It's discussed in
http://www.politics.ie/elections/105...libingate.html

[jc_ie]

But are staff at the count centre half awake? Remember in the Euro elections how a few thousand votes were misallocated to Declan Ganley instead of one of the minor candidates. I also remember in the divorce referendum a block of a few thousand votes were misallocated in the Dublin count centre (were No but allocated to Yes). I was there at the time. In both cases the screw-ups were only found because there was a recount.

What triggered the recount though?

I'd wonder if it wasnt the ballot papers not adding up properly then realising something was wrong and then have to check everything.
Im not defending it but if a mistake was caught because of error checking on the part of the count staff then its still caught.

[Fiachra O Luain]

YouTube video: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouUN2ylqGNI"]YouTube - Vote Misallocation in Ireland - Could the 2nd Lisbon referendum result be manipulated?[/ame]

Voting Fraud in Ireland? What would "Wheeliebingate" mean for Lisbon 2 vote?

WHEELIEBINGATE
=========================
An angry young Irish politician is outraged over the lack of progress in the investigation into the incident known as 'Wheeliebingate' - where 3,000 of his votes in last June’s European Elections were incorrectly attributed to another in the Ireland North West constituency.

MARGIN

Not a big deal, you say? Consider these facts;
The Irish Divorce Referendum of 1995 the deciding margin was 9, 114 votes.
If the Republic of Ireland is the only country to hold a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, that will utterly change the nature of the European Union for all of its 500 million inhabitants.

Now Irish voters are being warned to be concerned whether their votes during the upcoming Lisbon Treaty Referendum will be allocated correctly.
28 year old resident of Carndonagh, Co. Donegal, Fiachra Ó Luain has this week written to the Republic of Ireland’s Top Cop, Garda Commissioner Fachtna Murphy, complaining that the police officer put in charge of the investigation, was the same Garda who was in charge of the European election count when the votes originally went missing. Ó Luain has complained that so far, the Garda in question has been professionally inert in his attempts to gather further statements and investigate the matter.

REFUSAL


The Returning Officer who was in charge of the count has refused to give a statement or provide a list of the names of all individuals who had contact with the votes.
Meanwhile the investigating Garda told Fiachra Ó Luain that he would not interview the members of the ‘red team’ who discovered the Ó Luain ballots in the bundles of multi-millionaire candidate Declan Ganley, unless Ó Luain could come up with their names. However seeing as the investigating Garda was also the Garda in charge of the election count he should already have access to the name of all persons involved in the count!

Ó Luain was written to the Garda Commissioner and the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government saying that the whole thing now reeks of a cover-up. Ó Luain, and his Election Agent, UN and EU credentialed election monitor Dr. Edward Horgan are now convinced there was political interference in the process, and the investigation. “Just because it was millionaire Declan Ganley who called for the recheck that ultimately brought the misallocated votes in the Ganley bundles to the media’s attention, does not mean it was all an innocent mistake. If extra ballots had already been bought, then indeed it gives rise to possibility that further negotiation could have occurred during the overnight pause in the count. We are very lucky that the ‘red team’ brought the misallocated bundles to the attention of the media, at which stage Declan Ganley is said to have asked for the recheck to be cancelled! That is why the 'Red Team' should be so central to the investigation, however the Garda investigation has completely ignored them.”

CONCERN

Ó Luain is concerned that if up-to 3000 votes can be misallocated from the candidate with the least financial resources to the candidate with the most financial resources, and if the same people in charge of the European election count are again in charge of the referendum count, then it is conceivable that the result of the upcoming referendum could go to the highest bidder! When Ó Luain asked the Garda in charge of the investigation what guarantee there was that thousands of votes would not be misallocated in the upcoming referendum count, the Garda told him that there was no guarantee at all.

The Donegal based ex-Euro candidate says: “In this final fortnight before the second Lisbon Treaty Referendum, that is bound to be decided by a close margin, voters need to be reassured that all of their votes will be counted and allocated correctly. As the candidate involved, I am concerned that this may have resulted from deliberate electoral fraud rather than from an inadvertent mistake. It is highly unusual, and completely unacceptable that 3,000 First Preference votes can be misallocated.”

In the three months since the European election Mr. Ó Luain made repeated requests for a prompt and thorough investigation by the Returning Officer for the North West Constituency Kieran McDermott, the Gardaí and the Department of Environment, Heritage and Local Government and so far has not received any satisfactory response.

Mr. Ó Luain's position? Angry. Declaring: “The lack of any thorough and transparent investigation, three months down the road leaves a question mark over the accountability of our count process. How can we go to the polls again on October 2nd when the people who may have deliberately misallocated 3000 votes may also be in contact with the referendum ballots? The Garda Siochána have said themselves that there is no guarantee of anything. Needless to say this issue is not only relevant to Irish voters but also to the 500,000,000 citizens of 27 EU member states whose relationship with the EU will change irreversibly depending on the result of our referendum on Lisbon.”

Katrina Gill
katrina.gill@bbc.co.uk

People could help by writing to Minister John Gormley, Department for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Custom House, Dublin 1 and demand that he instruct the Returning Officer to give a full statement and provide a list of all individuals who had contact with the votes in Castlebar.

Something simple like:
Dear Minister,
It causes me a lot of concern that so many votes went 'missing' in the European elections in the North West constituency.
The attitude of the Garda Siochana and the Returning Officer stink to high heaven.
I vote, and I want to be 100% certain that when I bother to vote, that
my vote gets counted correctly.
I expect YOU to make sure it happens by demand that the Returning Officer provides a full Garda statement and list of individuals who had contact with the ballots at all stages of the count. Yours......

His email is: minister@environ.ie

Sound, Fiachra
+ 353 86 3193567

[Fiachra O Luain]

What triggered the recount though?

I'd wonder if it wasnt the ballot papers not adding up properly then realising something was wrong and then have to check everything.
Im not defending it but if a mistake was caught because of error checking on the part of the count staff then its still caught.

It was a recheck, not a recount. A recheck of a random 10% of the bundles, and 3000 votes of mine were found in Ganley's bundles. What does that tell you? Without an adequate Garda investigation we may never know, so that is the point. Electoral fraud in the referendum is well possible.
And mind your 'minor' candidate language
I had the highest vote:euro ration in the country. 6510 votes:€1400
Making sure that the media didn't have such an easy time translating
No to Lisbon: Yes to Libertas.
Please see my Facebook group 'Not Lisbon Nor Libertas'.

[Civic_critic2]

Say that a private company is in fact employed to collect the ballot boxes as perhaps may be suggested by the returning officer when he said "I have met with my contractor" and that this private company employs 2 people per van, a driver and a helper, to visit 10 polling stations each and accompanied by a garda escort in a separate car. There are around 4000 polling stations around the country and 43 count centres. The potential vulnerabilities lie in the collection of the ballot boxes and at the count. 400 private vans would be required to collect the ballot boxes across the country.

Taking 1 vulnerability, the collection of the ballot boxes and bearing in mind I'm not saying this is happening just that, on the available information, it could happen; if you wanted to target 10% of the vote no doubt targeted in the constituencies that proved to be most resistant to the treaty at the last run out - 10% of the vote of the entire country is at some point in possession of a mere 40 vans employing 80 people. If you offered 200,000 euros to each of those 80 people that's 16 million euro to buy them, chickenfeed to the EU.

Or more efficiently, approach the owner of the company and offer him/her 5 million and get to choose or place whoever you want in those vans. This would seem a relatively easy proposition especially if you command the combined resources of 27 national governments.

What would those people in the vans be able to do? I don't know since I don't know the details of how the vote is conducted, people with experience of conducting the vote such as returning officers or tallymen may be able to give us some pointers here. Suffice to say if, by some means or other, ballot stuffing is possible then this vulnerability in our system is a gaping hole.

I have contacted several departments of government and have been unable to find out even the most basic information about this process. It is a disgrace and one can have no confidence in the process on the basis of the current lack of information.

[NapperTandy]

It might help to allay any concerns that people may have about the referendum. I believe that U.N election monitors should monitor all worldwide elections & referendums. I have never understood why they don't monitor elections in the U.S, it just it isn't fair that it is just elections in poor countries that they monitor.

[Ramon21]

It might help to allay any concerns that people may have about the referendum. I believe that U.N election monitors should monitor all worldwide elections & referendums. I have never understood why they don't monitor elections in the U.S, it just it isn't fair that it is just elections in poor countries that they monitor.

Indeed, I don't trust the anti-europe side in ireland.
You never know what there up to.