Sinn Fein: Lisbon Posters Preview

[Fergalino]

Are you illiterate?

Article 48(4), second paragraph:

"The amendments shall enter into force after being ratified by all the Member States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements."

Exactly Peter. Every yes campaigner, if they want to memorise one sentence of Lisbon, should memorise Article 48.4. The self amending lie of the No side is so blatant its funny. I'm waiting for someone to knock on my door spouting that tripe. I'll hand them the treaty and ask them to read to me Article 48.4.

[constitutionus]

They're going up tonight.

There was a problem in the printing place, they should have been up last week but apparently were not delivered on time.

thanks.

thats what i wanted to know.

theres been a rake of new yes ones up by south dublin chamber and the like in my area so it'll be good to see something to counter it.

[shmuck]

Exactly Peter. Every yes campaigner, if they want to memorise one sentence of Lisbon, should memorise Article 48.4. The self amending lie of the No side is so blatant its funny. I'm waiting for someone to knock on my door spouting that tripe. I'll hand them the treaty and ask them to read to me Article 48.4.

Knock knock.. article 188c effectively eliminates Ireland's veto on international trade agreements,therefore decisions which will influence our agricultural/fishing sectors will be out of our control...call that self amending call that streamlining the EU...it all means less power to make our own decisions no two ways about it.

[Magror14]

Nice posters. I wonder who paid for them? Probably Sinn Fein's friends in UKIP and the Tory Party. I knew the Good Friday agreement was about reconciliation but this is ridiculous.

[bradán feasa]

Any application of Article 48 would be subject to ratification by member state parliaments but according to legal advice received by the Joint Oireachtas Committee on European Affairs in October 2008 would not have to be subject to referendum. This could have serious consequences in relation to issues like taxation in the future.

[petervalhala]

Any application of Article 48 would be subject to ratification by member state parliaments but according to legal advice received by the Joint Oireachtas Committee on European Affairs in October 2008 would not have to be subject to referendum. This could have serious consequences in relation to issues like taxation in the future.

Wrong!

"Nothing in the Treaty of Lisbon makes any change of any kind, for any Member State, to the extent or operation of the competence of the European Union in relation to taxation."

Could not be clearer, even for a Shinner.

[JCR]

Where exactly is the lie????????

When it comes to SF, every time the say anything at all. These poster are the latest pathetic piece of lowest common denominator nonsense from a party who rarely if ever speak a shred of truth about anything. Their time is gone. Goodbye.

[Angel Interceptor]

[cain1798]

Wrong!

"Nothing in the Treaty of Lisbon makes any change of any kind, for any Member State, to the extent or operation of the competence of the European Union in relation to taxation."

Could not be clearer, even for a Shinner.

Well...kind of. Firstly bradán is making two points. The first is that in October 2008 the Joint Committee received legal advice that Article 48 undermines the right to a referendum. To quote directly: “Article 48 expressly gives power to change the mechanism of voting and a ratification of this Article or the Treaty containing this Article by the Irish people in referendum gives authority in referendum for any subsequent change which complies with Article 48 without the necessity of further recourse to the people.”

Bradán's not wrong on that. He or she is simply stating a fact. And one could hardly call the Joint Committee a no side set of conspiracy theorists.

Your argument on taxation is based on the guarantee given to Ireland. The status of this in international law isn't particularly strong and even stronger agreements, such as the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, which Ireland ratified almost 20 years ago are frequently breached. The problem with international law is the lack of an enforcement mechanism, which makes enforcing 'guarantees' like this a tricky thing at the best of time.

Nevertheless, even if one accepts the status of the guarantees we end up back with Article 48. Assume the guarantee is solid. Under Article 48 the Council of Ministers, by unanimous decision, could alter the text of the existing treaty. Since all the guarantee does is state that nothing in the Treaty of Lisbon can affect taxation this doesn't contradict what the Council of Ministers may choose to do in future in altering the text of the treaty since the guarantee can hardly refer to a theoretical alteration.

In other words your position and Bradán's aren't mutually exclusive. You're right in what you say but he's right to point to another section of the treaty that has the potential to undermine the very guarantee you're talking about.

Pre Lisbon adopting a common tax system would require a broader treaty revision necessitating unanimity at council and a referendum in Ireland. Post Lisbon my read of it, and that of the legal advisors to the Joint Committee, is that there would be no need for the referendum.

You don't have to be a shinner or to like shinners to just look at the law.

[The Boy General]

Great picture.