Unhealthy lack of debate about trade unions in Labour and othes left wing parties.

[Supermanpolitician]

Labour isn't the worst of them and I quite like and get on well with many Labour folks.

But mention the word trade union and it is like a red rag to a bull. Obviously there is a need for trade unions, espeically in some areas, but Labour go nuts if you even try to debate the following:

Trade Unions are not Infallible.
Trade Unions sometimes go on strike too easily (more of a problem in the past, pre LRC than now).
It is very hard to fire a teacher, not matter ow incompetent because of a trade union. No specific teacher in mind, but where a teacher s utterly incompetent, it is impossible to get them sacked. It is almost impossible to get them disciplined. Unions go nuts and Labour needs to take a grip.
Union demands for higher wages have eroded our competitiveness. I know of very few in the private sector who vote Labour.


Will Labour every debate changing (not even reducing) union power in Ireland?

[cactusflower]

I come from the opposite perspective here but I agree with the OP question. In my mind the severance of the UK Labour Party from the Trade Unions was to the detriment of both and has ultimately destroyed the party. There was a report before the last Irish Labour Party conference that a similar move was proposed here. I've posted the question here several times asking Labour Party members if a motion was passed on this at the conference. I haven't had any replies yet.

The leadership of the Unions are an overpaid and inactive scandal who have increasingly merged into the crony capitalist milieu through the corporatists Partnership process. Its high time the membership voted some serious people in.

[Lucan Lefty]

Well whn you go into Government FG and Labour can sort that one out too. Oh wait can they?

[Kevin Doyle]

Trade Unions are not Infallible.?

They aren't and nobody claims they are.

Trade Unions sometimes go on strike too easily (more of a problem in the past, pre LRC than now).

Then why mention it?

It is very hard to fire a teacher, not matter ow incompetent because of a trade union. No specific teacher in mind, but where a teacher s utterly incompetent, it is impossible to get them sacked. It is almost impossible to get them disciplined.

Is this more of that barstool wisdom?

Labour needs to take a grip.

Translation, Labour needs to get with the well co-ordinated Trade Union bashing that IBEC has instigated so they can weaken terms and conditions and drive down wages throughout the economy without having to deal with the cartelism and engrained profiteering mentality within ISME and the economy at large.

Union demands for higher wages have eroded our competitiveness. .

Complete horsesh*t. Inflation led wage increases eroded our competitiveness. The cost of living here is the highest in Europe, wages reflect that reality.

Cost of living comes down, wages come down.

I know of very few in the private sector who vote Labour.

I know loads in the private sector who do.

Will Labour every debate changing (not even reducing) union power in Ireland?

What enables you to make such a claim, are you telepathically reading the minds of the entire membership of the Labour Party?

[red-365]

Will Labour every debate changing (not even reducing) union power in Ireland?

Well the party already reduced union power within the organisation when they adopted the 21st Century Commission Report at the Mullingar conference.

When you refer to union's 'power', I presume you mean their role in the social partnership process. That is something that is a matter for the Govt, which unfortunately, does not include Labour.

However, Gilmore has publicly warned the public sector unions and their members that wielding their industrial muscle over pension levies etc, would be counter productive, would inconvenience members of the public and would simply alienate people.

[Kevin Doyle]

Well the party already reduced union power within the organisation when they adopted the 21st Century Commission Report at the Mullingar conference..

Correct, I think that stops this thread dead in its tracks.

When you refer to union's 'power', I presume you mean their role in the social partnership process. That is something that is a matter for the Govt, which unfortunately, does include Labour.

I think you should have said does not?

However, Gilmore has publicly warned the public sector unions and their members that wielding their industrial muscle over pension levies etc, would be counter productive, would inconvenience members of the public and would simply alienate people.

Spot on. And the Pensions levies where introduced with practically zero Indusrial action despite the inherent unfairness of it. If they tried to do that in France or Germany the Unions would have shut the country down.

[stalins granny]

My Problem is that the trade union movement has not been as dynamic as it needs to be, they have been happy to represent public service workers in the main and i see no concerted effort to get out and recruit in private industry thus the union movement is heavily skewed in favour of one sector.

[red-365]

I think you should have said does not?

Fixed! Cheers.

[Podolski1.5]

Labour isn't the worst of them and I quite like and get on well with many Labour folks.

But mention the word trade union and it is like a red rag to a bull. Obviously there is a need for trade unions, espeically in some areas, but Labour go nuts if you even try to debate the following:

Trade Unions are not Infallible.
Trade Unions sometimes go on strike too easily (more of a problem in the past, pre LRC than now).
It is very hard to fire a teacher, not matter ow incompetent because of a trade union. No specific teacher in mind, but where a teacher s utterly incompetent, it is impossible to get them sacked. It is almost impossible to get them disciplined. Unions go nuts and Labour needs to take a grip.
Union demands for higher wages have eroded our competitiveness. I know of very few in the private sector who vote Labour.


Will Labour every debate changing (not even reducing) union power in Ireland?

I won't speak for Labour but it just goes to show how little you know about debate that goes on within parties of the left..

Trade Unions emerged as a response to employers who exploited and mistreated their employees. Over the last hundred or so years they have achieved much but it is clear that some employers still hold medieval attitudes towards their workers and trade union representatives.

I will deal with your points in the order you made them-

* No, indeed trade unions are not infallible and as a trade unionist myself I would have many criticisms of them, not for the same reasons as you of course, probably for the opposite reasons in fact. There are many workers who feel the trade union movement should be more militant and has cosied up too much to government and employers through the so-called partnership process. However the trade union movement is vital to protecting the interests of workers.

* You say that unions sometimes go on strike too easily. I wonder if you ever had to go on strike? No worker wants to do it because they lose money and in a prolonged strike they and their families will suffer financially and otherwise. Strike is almost always the last resort. The employer has many weapons to use against his workers but the worker has only one - his or her right to withdraw their labour. Workers are not owned by their bosses, they are working to a contract for them and where the employer is not fulfilling that contract they have the right to strike.

* "It is very hard to fire a teacher, not matter how incompetent because of a trade union. No specific teacher in mind, but where a teacher s utterly incompetent, it is impossible to get them sacked. It is almost impossible to get them disciplined" - This is simply not true. You speak of discipline almost as if it was the teacher who was the bold schoolboy or girl - the master versus servant argument again, that workers must be subservient. Any worker who is not up to the job or who is guilty of serious misconduct can lose their jobs but there are quite correctly mechanisms there to ensure that people are treated fairly. These mechanisms were won through the hard work of the trade union movement and in the face of opposition from employers who wanted to keep the right to hire and fire at will.


* "Union demands for higher wages have eroded our competitiveness". - what's this obsession with competitiveness? There are countries in the world (unfortunately) where workers are exploited and work for a few cents a day, often in appalling conditions. There is no way that any country in the developed world can compete with imports from such countries. Some employers would like to bring Irish workers down to the same meagre existence as those in parts of Asia and Africa who live from hand to mouth in shanty towns. You will not be able to compete with these. Rather than trying to bring the wages and conditions of Irish workers down you should be demanding that the pay of workers in the developing world are brought up and indeed that the uneven society we have where 5% of the worlds people own 95% of the wealth. Don't forget either that it is the capitalist project of globalisation which has made cheap imports even cheaper and easier to obtain.

Employers are not slow to stand up for their own rights. They too have organisations to fight for their position such as IBEC, ISME and the various professional organisations. They are not slow to demand things that attack working people such as cutting the minimum wage, cuttting social welfare, demanding that people who are through no fault of their own unemployed should work for their dole, etc. Why shouln't workers have their own organisations to protect them from such attacks?

The trade union movement is there to defend working people. It has its faults like any other organisation, but it is essential. Unity is Strength.

[seenitallb4]

If we want to know where the Labour party stands on Unions, then we will have to wait and see if they are in the next government. People can and do say anything when their words have zero real world consequences- it's what they do when they have actual power that matters. It will take nerve and skill for the Labour party to navigate some of the nastier fiscal realities of governing Ireland in its current condition. As of yet, I have not seen much in the way of what they plan to do with tax and spending. We will know more when they get around to producing a budgetary plan. FG, it seems, are one step ahead- they plan 24 billion in cuts and 13 or 14 billion in new taxes up to 2012. Could Labour back something in that range against possibly strong union opposition? I'll keep an open mind for now.........(while also worrying an awful lot).