Time for Labour and S.P (Joe Higgins) to unite?

**Lloyd-Apjohn** · 14th June 2009, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by discosunbeams

You are mistaking me for someone else because I have also not mentioned a revolution. Disadvantaged people blame their problems on the government (aka the rich) because
(a) They are the one's in power who have left them out to dry.
and
(b) It is the golden rule of capitalism, people suffer for others to gain wealth.

You must tell me a little about yourself or can I take a guess?

Privately of semi-privately educated?
Lived a privileged life away from those blasted poor people?
Grew up with every opportunity available to you due to your wealth?

and if I am wrong, and you are from a disadvantaged area and were raised by a struggling single mother doing her best for you, I wonder what twisted your mind so much that you think the rich are all wholesome and innocent while the poor are the subject of their own making.

A) Went to my local school, went to college in the evening while I worked during the day and paid for college myself.
B) Saw plenty of poor people and have a mother from a typical large Catholic family but where the father and mother made actual sacrifices to raise their family ie he didn't spend all his wages in the pub and from a father whose family are the titled landed gentry you so dispise but who were never wealthy and who never helped him financially in his life. What he has is entirely down to his own work.
C) If by every opportunity you mean parents who made sure I went to school, one of whom was at home all the time, when we were older they would even get out of bed at 1am or 2am to collect us from discos to make sure we got home safely and didn't get into trouble, who if we were meant to be home by 10pm came looking for us if we weren't, who made a point of knowing who our friends were, who made a point of explaining sex education dispite how excruciatingly embarrassing it was, gave us 3 meals a day, made sure I washed my teeth, learnt how to speak properly, made sure we did our homework, went to teacher-parent meetings, you know took a role in their children's lives and who made choices to provide acertain lifestlye ie not smoking as they needed the moeny to provide things in the home and having nearly cars instead of a new car to live within their means and not get into debt, making us know the value of money etc.

Also, Garret FitzGerald's grandfather was a farm labourer who owned no land and went from farm to farm in search of work and there is no long line of silver spoons in his family.

**discosunbeams** · 14th June 2009, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by Lloyd-Apjohn

A) Went to my local school, went to college in the evening while I worked during the day and paid for college myself.
B) Saw plenty of poor people and have a mother from a typical large Catholic family but where the father and mother made actual sacrifices to raise their family ie he didn't spend all his wages in the pub and from a father whose family are the titled landed gentry you so dispise but who were never wealthy and who never helped him financially in his life. What he has is entirely down to his own work.
C) If by every opportunity you mean parents who made sure I went to school, one of whom was at home all the time, when we were older they would even get out of bed at 1am or 2am to collect us from discos to make sure we got home safely and didn't get into trouble, who if we were meant to be home by 10pm came looking for us if we weren't, who made a point of knowing who our friends were, who made a point of explaining sex education dispite how excruciatingly embarrassing it was, gave us 3 meals a day, made sure I washed my teeth, learnt how to speak properly, made sure we did our homework, went to teacher-parent meetings, you know took a role in their children's lives and who made choices to provide acertain lifestlye ie not smoking as they needed the moeny to provide things in the home and having nearly cars instead of a new car to live within their means and not get into debt, making us know the value of money etc.

Also, Garret FitzGerald's grandfather was a farm labourer who owned no land and went from farm to farm in search of work and there is no long line of silver spoons in his family.

You saw plenty of poor people? well you must have such knowledge and wisdom then!

You seem to think that most fathers don't support their children, why? My dad did, and I strain to think of others who don't? except maybe one..but a court order is in place now to solve that problem.

My parents sacrificed everything for me and my family, my mother was 19 when she first got pregnant and she gave us everything we needed. I am lucky, and so are you. I was born into a loving family, despite the fact jobs were scarce both my parents worked. I went to my local primary and Irish secondary school a half hour walk and bus ride from where I live. Why are my views so different from yours? Because I am socially aware, that's why. I understand not everyone is born as lucky as us, just because their parents aren't the best does not mean they are useless, more opportunities must be provided to them, to learn skills and to understand the importance of the political system, to be socially aware and tolerant or they all might end up like you.

If a man and a woman accidentally have a child (it happens in all walks of life) and they do not take responsibility it is not the child's fault, as you well know but growing up in a situation where you have to leave school to work because you cannot afford food and your parents won't provide any is nothing short of disgraceful and living in an area where drugs and crime is rife is terrifying and some people don't see a way out because they have never been shown one.

**Lloyd-Apjohn** · 14th June 2009, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by discosunbeams

You saw plenty of poor people? well you must have such knowledge and wisdom then!

You seem to think that most fathers don't support their children, why? My dad did, and I strain to think of others who don't? except maybe one..but a court order is in place now to solve that problem.

My parents sacrificed everything for me and my family, my mother was 19 when she first got pregnant and she gave us everything we needed. I am lucky, and so are you. I was born into a loving family, despite the fact jobs were scarce both my parents worked. I went to my local primary and Irish secondary school a half hour walk and bus ride from where I live. Why are my views so different from yours? Because I am socially aware, that's why. I understand not everyone is born as lucky as us, just because their parents aren't the best does not mean they are useless, more opportunities must be provided to them, to learn skills and to understand the importance of the political system, to be socially aware and tolerant or they all might end up like you.

If a man and a woman accidentally have a child (it happens in all walks of life) and they do not take responsibility it is not the child's fault, as you well know but growing up in a situation where you have to leave school to work because you cannot afford food and your parents won't provide any is nothing short of disgraceful and living in an area where drugs and crime is rife is terrifying and some people don't see a way out because they have never been shown one.

What nonsense. The vast majority of children grow up in loveing stable families.

However, we are talking, as I understand it, about the other side of the coin where children do not have the stable start in life we had and no one is blaming the child but simply ignoring the root cause of that child's problem, ie unfit parents, doesn't solve the problem.

I'm pretty sure that children facing the struggles you mention come from familes where there is only one active parent involved and that parent can not cope. If you trace that family back you'll invariably find the mother had an unplanned pregnancy - no big deal. But the 2nd and 3rd and 4th ones are. Why should the mother not have to take responsibility for prevenintg a 2nd unplanned pregnancy?

If your mother got pregnant at 19 but went onto have more children that was because she was in a stable relationship were both parents took their responsibilities seriously. But what if she went onto have 3 or 4 children with different fathers, none of whom help financially or emotionally, and those children struggle - whose fault is that?

Should we just hand over everything or should there also be an element of personal responbibility in the debate?

**JollyRedGiant** · 14th June 2009, 02:01 PM