Time for Labour and S.P (Joe Higgins) to unite?

[discosunbeams]

Or maybe just maybe if poor people stopped having so many children they are patently unable to support then that would remove a huge burden from the rest of us and then it would be easier to change the system so everyone got their fair share.

A single mother has no 'right' to keep having children and adding a greater burder on the rest of us than a city toff has the right to earn millions and walk away when his bank or business goes bust leaving us to pick up the tab. Us being the majority in the middle who plan our number of children and pay all our taxes properly.

So while I've no sympathy for the rich boys now losing out equally I have little sympathy for the whining single mother on her 2nd, 3rd, 4th unplanned child.

You are an absolute idiot who is out of touch with the real world. You need a dose of reality.

[Lloyd-Apjohn]

You are an absolute idiot who is out of touch with the real world. You need a dose of reality.

Why? Because I suggested people take responsibility for their actions? If a person gets pregnant by mistake once and is struggled to cope or get by then why on earth would they get pregnant a second time without planning it through? Also, where you to check the details of all the people claiming to be single mothers you would find that some of them are in relationships with the father still who pays nothing toward the costs of providing for his child, some of these men will have other children with other etc etc.

By all means address the unfair perks that the rich have but don't insult my intelligence by saying that if you close off all the tax and pension loopholes that you'll end disadvantaged children in our society. The disadvantaged have to grow up as well.

[JollyRedGiant]

Or maybe just maybe if poor people stopped having so many children they are patently unable to support then that would remove a huge burden from the rest of us and then it would be easier to change the system so everyone got their fair share.

A single mother has no 'right' to keep having children and adding a greater burder on the rest of us than a city toff has the right to earn millions and walk away when his bank or business goes bust leaving us to pick up the tab. Us being the majority in the middle who plan our number of children and pay all our taxes properly.

So while I've no sympathy for the rich boys now losing out equally I have little sympathy for the whining single mother on her 2nd, 3rd, 4th unplanned child.

Single mothers cause all the problems in society - I remember Mary Harney trying to use this excuse when she was trying to get herself out of the sh*t as well.

[cactusflower]

There are massive problems in France and Germany, but even if there weren't, its a globalised economy and you can't cherry pick a few countries and say it is all working fine. Its like saying that Bill Gates is wealthy and therefore the US is O.K.

The reality is that those countries that are wealthy and "developed" are benefitting from the plundering of oil, minerals and other resources from other countries. Our democracies are paid for by undemocratic neoliberal regimes quietly backed by the US and other developed nations.

[discosunbeams]

Why? Because I suggested people take responsibility for their actions? If a person gets pregnant by mistake once and is struggled to cope or get by then why on earth would they get pregnant a second time without planning it through? Also, where you to check the details of all the people claiming to be single mothers you would find that some of them are in relationships with the father still who pays nothing toward the costs of providing for his child, some of these men will have other children with other etc etc.

By all means address the unfair perks that the rich have but don't insult my intelligence by saying that if you close off all the tax and pension loopholes that you'll end disadvantaged children in our society. The disadvantaged have to grow up as well.

Yes clever man there are corrupt people in all parts of society, well done.

I never mentioned tax and pensions.

Your thinking epitomises Fine Gael.

Without decent opportunities, the disadvantaged are pretty much left to rot.

I know many advantaged, upper class people who aren't exactly contributing greatly to our society, but I don't judge the entire orchard by a few bad apples.

[Lloyd-Apjohn]

Yes clever man there are corrupt people in all parts of society, well done.

I never mentioned tax and pensions.

Your thinking epitomises Fine Gael.

Without decent opportunities, the disadvantaged are pretty much left to rot.

I know many advantaged, upper class people who aren't exactly contributing greatly to our society, but I don't judge the entire orchard by a few bad apples.

So you think after this utopian revolution that there will be no more poverty or oppression? I think they tried that in Russia and China and lots of other places and funny enough it didn't work there anymore than it would work in Ireland.

Everyone, be they rich or poor, has to take some responsibility for their life. So as much as rich people need to think about where their wealth comes from and at whose expenses so too shoudl the disadvantaged think about what they have done to limit their choices and not just blame it all on rich people.

[cactusflower]

I am realistic enough to know that a socialist revolution is not around the corner - but I am also realistic enough to know that being in coalition with a right-wing party will only make thigns work. I am singularly interested in helping working class people - I am not in the least worried about getting the capitalist class or the capitalist economy out of the sh*t. It's in the sh*t because it is capitalist - it doesn't work and there is no use in pretending it does. Do yourself a favour and have a look back at the history of the LP in coalition. Look particularly at the 1973-1977 and the 1982-1987 coalition governments and try and find a single advancement made by the LP.

Firstly, I'm not at all sure how far away moments of potentially big chance are. Political change in the last six months has been greater than in the last ten years. What alternative do you suggest ? What are the next steps for working people to take politically ? Hand over quietly to a Fine Gael-Labour coalition?

Historically in the post war period social democratic parties across Europe saw real improvements in the lives of working people through welfare state measures. This proved unsustainable as their relative competitivity was less than countries with higher levels of exploitiation, and because of the ruthless reactionary drive lead by Thatcher and her backers.

Labour is finished and is imploding in the UK as it has moved so far to the right that its voter base has given up voting or is voting elsehwhere. This isn't yet the case in Ireland although Blairite change to the Irish Labour Party was pushed through at the last conference. A lot of people have voted Labour because they want socialist measures. Are they supposed to sit idly by and let Labour walk into an FG government ?

Does the Socialist Party have transitional demands ?

[discosunbeams]

So you think after this utopian revolution that there will be no more poverty or oppression? I think they tried that in Russia and China and lots of other places and funny enough it didn't work there anymore than it would work in Ireland.

Everyone, be they rich or poor, has to take some responsibility for their life. So as much as rich people need to think about where their wealth comes from and at whose expenses so too shoudl the disadvantaged think about what they have done to limit their choices and not just blame it all on rich people.

You are mistaking me for someone else because I have also not mentioned a revolution. Disadvantaged people blame their problems on the government (aka the rich) because
(a) They are the one's in power who have left them out to dry.
and
(b) It is the golden rule of capitalism, people suffer for others to gain wealth.

You must tell me a little about yourself or can I take a guess?

Privately of semi-privately educated?
Lived a privileged life away from those blasted poor people?
Grew up with every opportunity available to you due to your wealth?

and if I am wrong, and you are from a disadvantaged area and were raised by a struggling single mother doing her best for you, I wonder what twisted your mind so much that you think the rich are all wholesome and innocent while the poor are the subject of their own making.

[turdsl]

There is nothing Gilmore could offer Joe Higgins, even if he were minded to do so, that would bring Joe Higgins within the Labour Party.
But it would certainly frighten a lot of new LP voters and send them running to FG or even back to FF.

PS - I have direct experience of Joe Higgins when I spent a year as a member of the LP in UCD 1976-77. He was just so incredibly BORING.
He has improved, but my idea of hell would be to be locked away on a desert island with Claire Daly. Sometimes I think that lecherous Sylvio Berlusconi has a point when he complains about left-wing female politicians. But she has just topped the poll in swords so she must ring some people's bell.

Well,not to many would want to be alone on a desert island with Enda either

[turdsl]

So you think after this utopian revolution that there will be no more poverty or oppression? I think they tried that in Russia and China and lots of other places and funny enough it didn't work there anymore than it would work in Ireland.

Everyone, be they rich or poor, has to take some responsibility for their life. So as much as rich people need to think about where their wealth comes from and at whose expenses so too shoudl the disadvantaged think about what they have done to limit their choices and not just blame it all on rich people.

My, My, what a change,in a few years i can see F.G advocating abortion,moving wit the times at last