Dick Spring suggests a halt to Immigration!

[Fish]

[size=7]Arrrrggghhhhhhh[/size]

Fish..

I dont think your racist ... I think you have a right to ask questions ..

but just answer a simple question ..

Do you think Ireland should leave the EU ?

Unless we leave the EU.. then EU citizens .. who make up about 95% of inward migration are perfectly entitled to be here.. ..

So, should Ireland leave the EU ?

Hi there rock of cashel,

I don't think that we need to leave the EU to restrict the amount of migrants to our country. Is the EU not a collection of independent sovereign states?

In as far as I am aware EU statutes allow any EU state to maintain control over their own borders so we can restrict numbers coming here if the situation regarding the numbers coming here becomes untenable. We are at present being swamped and in the nightmare scenario that the government told us would not happen. Moreover the government are now lethargically beginning to realise this.

I recall that when the new accession states joined in January we were told by our leaders that there would be supposed restrictions on the number of these people coming here yet if you have read some of the papers today you would see that since January more Romanians came here than the total number in 2006.

[rockofcashel]

[size=7]Arrrrggghhhhhhh[/size]

Fish..

I dont think your racist ... I think you have a right to ask questions ..

but just answer a simple question ..

Do you think Ireland should leave the EU ?

Unless we leave the EU.. then EU citizens .. who make up about 95% of inward migration are perfectly entitled to be here.. ..

So, should Ireland leave the EU ?

Hi there rock of cashel,

I don't think that we need to leave the EU to restrict the amount of migrants to our country. Is the EU not a collection of independent sovereign states?

In as far as I am aware EU statutes allow any EU state to maintain control over their own borders so we can restrict numbers coming here if the situation regarding the numbers coming here becomes untenable. We are at present being swamped and in the nightmare scenario that the government told us would not happen. Moreover the government are now lethargically beginning to realise this.

I recall that when the new accession states joined in January we were told by our leaders that there would be supposed restrictions on the number of these people coming here yet if you have read some of the papers today you would see that since January more Romanians came here than the total number in 2006.

No Fish ..

Under EU law, we have a right to restrict the levels of EU citizens who work here (and we decided to forego that right under the last accession except for Romania and Bulgaria), but we have no right to restrict EU citizens travelling here.

This is the point I am trying to make

[Conor]

In as far as I am aware EU statutes allow any EU state to maintain control over their own borders so we can restrict numbers coming here if the situation regarding the numbers coming here becomes untenable.

If there were evidence that intra-EU immigration was having a significant and deleterious impact on the labour market, then we could apply the same regime (work permits etc) that existed pre-accession until the transitional arrangements expire. But there isn't. We can't restrict EU citizens from coming here just because there's lots of them.

[Fish]

[b]We as a nation have had more inward migration per capita foisted on us of any developed country in history by a government that are too concerned with propping up the property market and manipulating the economy growth figures by creating huge amounts of yellow pack jobs without any consideration given to the long term consequences.

That is a straight up lie.

No Tom it is not a lie!

There have been numerous reports on the numbers of people coming to Ireland in the past number of years is unprecidented. Hooky had a piece on it only an hour ago.

Tell me where are all the high paid jobs that have been created? The facts are that the majority of jobs created over the past number of years have been in construction and services.

[Fish]

[size=7]Arrrrggghhhhhhh[/size]

Fish..

I dont think your racist ... I think you have a right to ask questions ..

but just answer a simple question ..

Do you think Ireland should leave the EU ?

Unless we leave the EU.. then EU citizens .. who make up about 95% of inward migration are perfectly entitled to be here.. ..

So, should Ireland leave the EU ?

Hi there rock of cashel,

I don't think that we need to leave the EU to restrict the amount of migrants to our country. Is the EU not a collection of independent sovereign states?

In as far as I am aware EU statutes allow any EU state to maintain control over their own borders so we can restrict numbers coming here if the situation regarding the numbers coming here becomes untenable. We are at present being swamped and in the nightmare scenario that the government told us would not happen. Moreover the government are now lethargically beginning to realise this.

I recall that when the new accession states joined in January we were told by our leaders that there would be supposed restrictions on the number of these people coming here yet if you have read some of the papers today you would see that since January more Romanians came here than the total number in 2006.

No Fish ..

Under EU law, we have a right to restrict the levels of EU citizens who work here (and we decided to forego that right under the last accession except for Romania and Bulgaria), but we have no right to restrict EU citizens travelling here.

This is the point I am trying to make

Rock I never said we should restrict EU citizens travelling here but I think we need to tighten up on abuse of our systems by people coming here with no work permits and working in the black economy

[MichaelR]

He also referred to the lack of integration saying that he often sees (in Tralee) immigrants going to the supermarket or off-licence on a Friday evening stocking up for the weekend and making no effort to integrate with the locals.

Not to comment on the rest on the discussion... I'm somewhat baffled by this phrase. How does he determine "no effort to integrate with the locals" by action in a supermarker or off-licence?

Does he mean that they should instead go to the pub for their weekend drinks, and integrate with the locals in that particular way?

Apart from any debate on the merits of this path of integration, they may simply be unable to afford it. The pub is about 2 times more expensive.

[Kev408]

Let's say we defy all organisations/groups/parties advice that have agreed immigration at the rate of about 50,000 a year is needed to maintain our economy and choose to listen to a small number of racists, what do the anti-immigration brigade propose we do with those immigrants that are already here? Shoot them? It must be tempting for some of you to say what you really want in response to that question. But if you do you'll be banned.

Immigrants are here to stay whether you like it or not. The only trouble that arises regarding immigrants is when native idiots refer to maintaining a culture that not one of them can define, when they establish narrow-minded, bigoted, anti-immigration groups and when these natives are so consumed by their own fear and ignorance they forget that we are all the very same - human beings.

[Fish]

In as far as I am aware EU statutes allow any EU state to maintain control over their own borders so we can restrict numbers coming here if the situation regarding the numbers coming here becomes untenable.

If there were evidence that intra-EU immigration was having a significant and deleterious impact on the labour market, then we could apply the same regime (work permits etc) that existed pre-accession until the transitional arrangements expire. But there isn't. We can't restrict EU citizens from coming here just because there's lots of them.

Hi Conor,

Did you read in the papers today about the number of people coming here since January from Romania with no work permits? (More than the entire number that came here in 2006!) I take your point we can't stop people coming here but we can restrict work permits.

Don't tell me that is not having an effect on the labour market. I have a number of friends in construction that are finding it more and more difficult to get work and the work that they are getting is increasingly at lower prices at a time when the cost of living in this country is going bonkers.

I know that some of that is because of the slowdown in the property market but that is the result of a vicious circle that has occured because effectively the government allowed in huge numbers of migrants to build the houses to be rented by the migrants to keep their buddies in the FF tent at the galway races prosperous with the added spin off of the huge stamp duty reciepts, Vat, etc to the government coffers.

I don't have a problem with people coming here but our government was one of only a handful that allowed workers from the first raft of accesion states i.e Poland, etc come here to work. Why did'nt Britain, France, Germany, Italy, etc allow free movement of people into their labour markets in the first round of accession? They resricted work permits didnt they!

[Conor]

Don't tell me that is not having an effect on the labour market. I have a number of friends in construction that are finding it more and more difficult to get work and the work that they are getting is increasingly at lower prices at a time when the cost of living in this country is going bonkers.

This isn't reflected in the Live Register figures. But I'll agree it's probably had an impact on wage inflation.

Why did'nt Britain, France, Germany, Italy, etc allow free movement of people into their labour markets in the first round of accession? They resricted work permits didnt they!

Britain didn't, no.

[rockofcashel]

Rock I never said we should restrict EU citizens travelling here but I think we need to tighten up on abuse of our systems by people coming here with no work permits and working in the black economy

but Fish.. do you really understand what I am trying to say ...

and does Ballubahs.. Twin Towers.. FT .. Catalpa .. KerryNorth etc etc etc ....

I am not accusing any of you as being racist for outlining your concerns .. but your response to Springs contribution was indicative of the lack of understanding of the issue of migration into this country.. as is so many other responses and posts on this issue ..

And I am taking issue with Springs contribution, because he knows this full well, and is, in my opinion trying to use the issue for electoral reasons.

Let me put it like this

1. There is a concern, both spoken and unspoken, about the level of immigration into this country, amongst many people.

2. Some use terms like "Mass Immigration" to highlight it.

3. The reality is .. as indicated by preliminary census figures, that about 95% of non nationals in this country, are citizens of the EU, and under EU law, have a legal right to come here if they wish. Just as I have a right to go to Poland, Latvia etc etc etc

4. This will not change, unless Ireland secedes from the EU. We can't have our cake as regards the EU, and eat it. If we want the access to markets etc then we cannot stop EU citizens coming here

5. We can stop EU citizens working here, and we have chosen to do that in the cases of Bulgaria and Romania, but we did not choose to do it in the case of the rest of the new accession states. If we want to change that now, then we must change our legislation for doing it. Is that what people want Ireland to do ? If it is, say so. And let each separate political party come out and say so

6. The PD's, FG, and the Labour Party have now in the last few months began making noises about the "problem of Immigration". But, in all cases, what they are presenting to the Irish people, is nothing more than a bottle of smoke, and will have no discernible effect whatsoever on what people consider to be "mass immigration"

The PD's talk about a "Migrants Bill" or "Refugee Act", and dealing with "Asylum seekers". Even if the most draconian features that have been considered are implemented, they will deal with about 3,000 people per annum who are actually coming here seeking asylum, but will have no effect whatsoever on EU citizens coming here, because they are legally entitled to do so.

Is any of that hard to understand, or doesn't make sense.

Lets talk about the issue in real terms.

The vast majority of "Immigrants" which people think are "swamping" Ireland, are EU citizens.

Now is any party prepared to call on Ireland to leave the EU, because unless we do, they will continue to come here. Because they are entitled to.