Atheists Ireland plan to commit a blasphemous outrage this Saturday: Morning Ireland

[Alterego]

Hi Alterego,
where did you hear the figure of 1 Billion? Denmark's economy is fairly small, I'd be a bit surprised if they relied on the middle east for that much of their export's. Anyhow, to be honest, money isn't everything. While 1 Billion is an expensive price to pay for free speech, I'd be inclined to say it was worth it (though I doubt it actually cost that much.). We shouldn't give people inclined towards such random outrage any hold over us, so we'd probably be better off without their money anyway.

Just my 2 cents.

I got my figures wrong actually, turns out the estimate is 7.5 billion - sorry, my bad.
That's the point though, it isn't FREE speech, it's insulting denigrating speech. Still, if you believe that's your right then I'm sure you can live with the consequences. As for Irish exports to the Middle East and other Muslim lands, I can tell you now that meat exports are currently keeping the market in Ireland from sinking. Between airlines and other concerns in this area alone you're talking about a considerable knock on effect.

[Vega1447]

Might go there myself. At least it's good for a laugh. All the religious threads are the bloody same. And I get bored easily . . .

Are there any threads on boiler maintenance?

I'd still be interested in your clarification of the difference between

"respecting people's beliefs"
and
"respecting their right to believe"...


You seem to see the second as insufficient?

I see the first as an unreasonable ask..

[Hewson]

Very strange to be accused of prejudice by someone who (presumably) believes that he *knows* that his religion teaches the Truth.

I'm genuinely interested: what *do* you mean by
"respecting people's beliefs"
as distinct from
"respecting their right to believe"?

For example; I do not "respect" the Mormon belief that the angel Moroni brought the word of God to (?) Joseph Smith on tablets of gold that unfortunately went missing.

It is transparently either fraudulent or delusional.

If you do "respect this belief" and assuming that you are not a Mormon yourself, what does your "respect" mean and how does it differ from my "respecting their right to believe"?

Now, this may surprise you. In fact I know it will. But I have great time for Mormons. They're polite (AI please note), gentle, unassuming and have nice clean shirts. And fingernails.

I've spoken to them at length, and enjoyed it, but thought their beliefs were a little, well . . . strange. Do I respect their beliefs? Sure I do. Why would I not? Because I don't find them credible? Well, as you would probably say, 'that's my problem.'

Just because I don't share somebody's belief doesn't mean it's undeserving of respect. To think otherwise is arrogance.

[Vega1447]

I got my figures wrong actually, turns out the estimate is 7.5 billion - sorry, my bad.
That's the point though, it isn't FREE speech, it's insulting denigrating speech. Still, if you believe that's your right then I'm sure you can live with the consequences.

Do Muslims respect the beliefs of kafrs?
(Hindus, Buddhists etc, not just Jews and Christians.)

I think not...

[Vega1447]

Just because I don't share somebody's belief doesn't mean it's undeserving of respect. To think otherwise is arrogance.

Sorry to flog this to death Hewson.

What do you mean when you say that you respect their beliefs as distinct from respecting their right to hold them?

[Hewson]

You suggested I might be a drug addict and that I might be stupid. Then you went on to call me a turnip and said that you hoped I live a life of dark solitude. (That last one is a particularly nasty thing to wish on anyone.) All becasue I told a joke you didn't like. Now, that's fine. I don't want to get into a p!ssing contest with you, so I'll leave it at that.

If you would like to report me to the Gardai then you are welcome to do so. Send me a PM and I will send you my full conatct details.

Right then. Firstly, I apologise for calling you a turnip, hope you live your life in the sun and have a long and healthy existence this side of the crematorium with your family. Pissing contest over so can we clean up now?

Secondly, do you think you're being a little paranoid with that last piece there . . ?

[Hewson]

Sorry to flog this to death Hewson.

What do you mean when you say that you respect their beliefs as distinct from respecting their right to hold them?

Cook is calling me to organise tonight's menu for the guests. Smoked trout and Beluga caviar, pheasant and prunes etc. But it's always the choice of which champagne to have with the damned bird that stumps me . . .


Think of someone you know. Anyone, preferably someone you're close to and like. Now, do you think of that person's inate qualities, irritating habits, odd outbursts and taste in clothes as totally separate from them? Or as part of the package that you really like? If they believe that when they die part of their being, the essence that makes them unique inside, will live on in a different plane of existence, would it make you respect that part of their personality less? Because if you do, aren't you respecting the whole less?

People are made up of all sorts of complexities. Each is worthy of respect, regardless of our own opinions of its merits or otherwise.

[Malboury]

I got my figures wrong actually, turns out the estimate is 7.5 billion - sorry, my bad.
That's the point though, it isn't FREE speech, it's insulting denigrating speech. Still, if you believe that's your right then I'm sure you can live with the consequences. As for Irish exports to the Middle East and other Muslim lands, I can tell you now that meat exports are currently keeping the market in Ireland from sinking. Between airlines and other concerns in this area alone you're talking about a considerable knock on effect.

Hey Altergo,
you're absolutely right on both points. Looks like it will cost a fair bit alright; I was hoping for a link, but with the powers of Google I was able to check the source anyway. 7.5bn is a lot of money, but not too much to pay for freedom of express. The other point you made is that I am willing to live with the consequences of what I think to be right! I'd rather be poor, and allowed to express my self, and to be rich, express myself and then be killed because of what I said! (or indeed have to pay a fine for expressing myself; then I'd be unfree and poor!) So I guess we agree, but have different values, which causes us to reach different conclusions. You'd prefer to keep the money rather than risk offending people. I'm okay with offending people. Sometimes it has to be done. Now, if I've put words in your mouth here, I do apoligise, but this does seem to be where you were going...

Being offended isn't so bad anyway. To be honest, it's led to a lot of creative ideas down the years. Having your ideas challenged means you have to think about them more, defend them. And thinking about things is never a bad idea!

[Vega1447]

People are made up of all sorts of complexities. Each is worthy of respect, regardless of our own opinions of its merits or otherwise.

You are saying that each complexity is worthy of respect, I take it?

No they are'nt I'm afraid.

My faults (I'll spare you the details) may deserve tolerance but not respect.

In the end it may just come down to what you & I mean by respect..
Perhaps you mean tolerance.
To me respect means assigning a high value/admiration even...

Back to your meal:
Louis Roederer Cristal is always a good choice.

I respect your right to prefer Cava, but not the choice.....

[Alterego]

Hey Altergo,
you're absolutely right on both points. Looks like it will cost a fair bit alright; I was hoping for a link, but with the powers of Google I was able to check the source anyway. 7.5bn is a lot of money, but not too much to pay for freedom of express. The other point you made is that I am willing to live with the consequences of what I think to be right! I'd rather be poor, and allowed to express my self, and to be rich, express myself and then be killed because of what I said! (or indeed have to pay a fine for expressing myself; then I'd be unfree and poor!) So I guess we agree, but have different values, which causes us to reach different conclusions. You'd prefer to keep the money rather than risk offending people. I'm okay with offending people. Sometimes it has to be done. Now, if I've put words in your mouth here, I do apoligise, but this does seem to be where you were going...

Being offended isn't so bad anyway. To be honest, it's led to a lot of creative ideas down the years. Having your ideas challenged means you have to think about them more, defend them. And thinking about things is never a bad idea!

I don't think you have to grossly insult people to achieve those things at all, and neither do you if you are honest. You could easily sit with me over a cup of coffee and say you don't believe Muhammad is a Prophet and debate the issue without once having to resort to sexual expletives or other insult. I have no concerns with legitimate debate whatsoever, in fact I relish the thought for it is through such that we enrich ourselves and perhaps understand a little bit more about ourselves. The problem with gross insult and offense is that it very often a cover for a weak or simply no argument at all - in other words there is no purpose but to offend.