View Poll Results: What do you think of Dermot Ahern's latest Criminal Justice proposals?

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Thread: "Leading lawyers call for Bill on gangs to be withdrawn"- Irish Times

  1. #1
    Politics.ie Regular powderfinger's Avatar
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    "Leading lawyers call for Bill on gangs to be withdrawn"- Irish Times

    Mark Hennessy writes in to-days Irish Times that leading criminal lawyers have called on the Government to immediately withdraw proposed legislation on criminal gangs.
    Leading lawyers call for Bill on gangs to be withdrawn - The Irish Times - Wed, Jul 08, 2009


    LEADING CRIMINAL lawyers have called on the Government to immediately withdraw legislation to expand the use of the Special Criminal Court to tackle gangland crime.
    In a letter to today’s Irish Times, the 133 defence and prosecution lawyers say they are seeking time for “a reasoned debate” on the issue.

    Last edited by powderfinger; 9th July 2009 at 12:30 AM.

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    This bill is the greatest threat to freedom and justice in years. Any idiot copper with a grudge can claim someone is in a gang and get them banged up for 10 years , it is a disgrace and any TD who votes for it should be picketed and run out of political life.

    It will bring the country years of shame and cost multi millions in appeals and also censure form the EU courts and the Un. They have lost their minds. Sort out the bent coips and the social inequity. This law is absurd and completely against the constitution of Eire

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by skin da goat View Post
    This bill is the greatest threat to freedom and justice in years. Any idiot copper with a grudge can claim someone is in a gang and get them banged up for 10 years , it is a disgrace and any TD who votes for it should be picketed and run out of political life.

    It will bring the country years of shame and cost multi millions in appeals and also censure form the EU courts and the Un. They have lost their minds. Sort out the bent coips and the social inequity. This law is absurd and completely against the constitution of Eire
    Here here.

    Thank God the lawyers are doing something right.

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    The mind really boggles I have written to several TDs on this everyone should do likewise.
    It is the grossest threat to a free a democratic society. Ireland will rank with China , North Korea, Isreal, Iran and actually it is worse. Shame on Ahern and anyone who supports this bill.

    if it passes in the Dail and Seanad the President must refuse to ratify it.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by skin da goat View Post
    if it passes in the Dail and Seanad the President must refuse to ratify it.
    That useless sow hasn't an atom between her ears and simply does as she's told.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skin da goat View Post
    This bill is the greatest threat to freedom and justice in years. Any idiot copper with a grudge can claim someone is in a gang and get them banged up for 10 years , it is a disgrace and any TD who votes for it should be picketed and run out of political life.

    It will bring the country years of shame and cost multi millions in appeals and also censure form the EU courts and the Un. They have lost their minds. Sort out the bent coips and the social inequity. This law is absurd and completely against the constitution of Eire
    You are aware that opinion evidence has been admissable in "membership" trials since the 1970s?

    So why weren't bent coppers with a grudge banging up innocents up and down the county for supposedly being provos?

    Why wasn't Ireland sent to the naughty step by the UN in all that time?

  7. #7
    Politics.ie Regular TradCat's Avatar
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    One can understand criminal laywers trying to do the best for their client base. But the rest of us have an overriding interest in seeing these gangs put down so the bill is going to be hugely popular and the more people talk about civil liberties the more popular it's going to be. Living free of violent parasitic thugs is the civil liberty we are most interested in. That's why the government are doing it.

    But it won't work and that's the real issue. You can lock up every scumbag drug-dealer in the country and as long as you leave the economics of the situation as they are for drugs you are only creating business opportunitties for new scumbags.

    The drugs business is the problem and "war on drugs" type measures will never work. The debate we need to have is about legalisation.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by skin da goat View Post
    This bill is the greatest threat to freedom and justice in years. Any idiot copper with a grudge can claim someone is in a gang and get them banged up for 10 years , it is a disgrace and any TD who votes for it should be picketed and run out of political life.

    It will bring the country years of shame and cost multi millions in appeals and also censure form the EU courts and the Un. They have lost their minds. Sort out the bent coips and the social inequity. This law is absurd and completely against the constitution of Eire
    Oh grow up. They need to support the claim with evidence. This bill only affects the scumbags. If you are not a scumbag then you have nothing to fear. We all know why these lawyers are coming out against the bill.

    I am no fan of Ahern but this is something that is needed.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by TradCat View Post
    One can understand criminal laywers trying to do the best for their client base.
    Thing is, the lawyers objecting to this rushed flawed legislation also include prosecution lawyers, who might otherwise be assumed to be in favour of it as it will make their jobs easier.

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    I thought it would be worth quoting some of the letter as what it says, shocked me. I wasn't aware of how far reaching the effects of this rushed legislation will be. These criminal lawyers include senior counsel and prosecution lawyers.

    We see at first hand the effect of crime, particularly violent crime on individuals and communities in our society and we also have a close up view of the criminal justice system with its strengths and its frailties.

    We are extremely concerned then about the Criminal Justice (Amendment) Bill 2009 which, it appears, is likely to become law this week.

    It has been introduced without any research to support its desirability and without canvassing expert opinion or inviting contribution from interested parties on the issues.

    It appears now that it will be passed without proper debate in the Dáil because such debate has been guillotined by the Government.

    It is quite simply astounding that we as a society would jettison ancient rights and rules of evidence in such a manner and seemingly without regard to the effect such impetuous legislating might ultimately have on the respect for the rule of law in this country.

    While there are many aspects of the Bill that cause real and serious concern the most pressing are as follows: The abolition of jury trial for a range of new offences; the use of opinion evidence from any garda as to the existence of a criminal organisation; the failure to require that the garda opinion evidence be corroborated; the provision for secret hearings to extend detentions without the presence of the suspect or their lawyer.

    Jurors who give up their time, as is both their right and duty, often come away with a deep appreciation of the process that must be applied in ensuring a fair trial for all and a realisation of the magnitude of the decision which has been entrusted to them.

    The right to trial by jury is enshrined in our Constitution, only to be taken away where it is determined that the ordinary courts are inadequate to secure the effective administration of justice, and the preservation of public peace and order.

    Are we as a nation at greater threat from “ordinary” criminals than other countries are from organised international terrorism? The US will allow jury trial of those within its territorial borders. In the UK they try “terrorist” offences in jury courts.

    Recent legislation in the UK has allowed for rare non-jury trials but it at least requires a hearing before such an order can be made. If this legislation is passed, all these new offences will go to the Special Criminal Court unless the DPP directs otherwise.

    The United Nations Human Rights Committee has already condemned the inequality of similar provisions as it applies to existing offences but now it is proposed that we widen the net of those accused who are to be denied the right to a jury trial.

    Opinion evidence from a Garda must be understood as simply that – an opinion. No basis for such an opinion would be required by this Bill. No corroboration is required.

    A Garda on the beat – who may base it on a person’s previous convictions or from evidence upon which he/she will claim privilege and therefore not have to divulge where it came from – will be able to give an opinion which could result in conviction and sentence for a serious crime.

    The Constitution will surely not permit this, but even if it does, Ireland is likely to find itself shamed before the international community when the European Court of Human Rights or the United Nations Human Rights Committee are, inevitably, called upon to rule on the issue.

    When seeking extensions of detention for the purpose of investigation the hearings may be heard in secret and not just in the absence of the person in detention and his/her lawyer but without even the judge’s clerk or prosecution lawyer if deemed appropriate.

    Secret hearings should be anathema to a system based on the rule of law. From the manner in which detention hearings are currently conducted, there is nothing to suggest that investigations would be compromised.

    In the main the court hears generalised evidence about the necessity for further time to carry out interrogations, forensic testing or assessment of evidence.

    Finally we would draw attention to the fact that many of the issues that have been raised by the Government in promoting this Bill have already been addressed in previous legislation.

    For example, the intimidation of witnesses is met by both the use of out of court statements as evidence and the use of covert surveillance.

    Out of court statements have already been used before the courts and have resulted in successful prosecutions and the latter provisions regarding covert surveillance have to be given the opportunity to work before we rush headlong into unknown territory.
    10 days apparently from publication of the bill to the passing of it.

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