Hard Time for Hard Crimes

[KingKane]

I think there is a need for a new prison facility into which those criminals who have committed violence crimes without remorse and for profit should be detained. Those who are genuinely seeking rehabilitation should continue to be facilitated within the existing prison system but the state needs to have a facility at its disposal which is about doing hard time.

Prison should be about three things, rehabilitation, protection of society, and punishment. I think we do the first rather badly, the 2nd is achieved only while those involved are inside and the latter appears to be lacking in that a portion of criminals do not appear to fear returning to prison.

This is about having a properly gradated approach to prison not about treating all prisoners the same. We've heard a lot about the need for services within prison and I agree with the intent for those prisoners who are prepared to make the effort to reform but for those who are simply looking to do their time and then return to crime upon their release we need to also extend the range of options in the other direction.

[Gimpanzee]

This is about having a properly gradated approach to prison not about treating all prisoners the same.

Doesn't the idea of everyone being entitled to the same treatment under the Justice system cause a problem in that regard? Or could it just be a sentencing issue at the judges discretion?

[KingKane]

Doesn't the idea of everyone being entitled to the same treatment under the Justice system cause a problem in that regard? Or could it just be a sentencing issue at the judges discretion?

The type of time you do is related to the crime you have committed, and parole and early release are related to your behaviour inside. I'm not talking about treating those who have committed the same offences in the same circumstances differently. We don't treat all prisoners the same at the moment. We offer sex offenders treatment for their problems but not to those inside for simply refusal to pay their debts.

[Gimpanzee]

I'm not talking about treating those who have committed the same offences in the same circumstances differently.

Seems to me that the offence committed isn't a good enough way of determining which prisoners are unwilling/unable to be rehabilitated and as you say simply looking to do their time and then return to crime. So how do you define the circumstances that the offence was committed in, in relation to this hard time? And how do you avoid it turning into an appeal-fest, with the massive cost attached?

[ibis]

Seems to me that the offence committed isn't a good enough way of determining which prisoners are unwilling/unable to be rehabilitated and as you say simply looking to do their time and then return to crime. So how do you define the circumstances that the offence was committed in, in relation to this hard time? And how do you avoid it turning into an appeal-fest, with the massive cost attached?

You would have to define it by crime. So murder of a domestic kind, say, would carry the presumption that you probably regretted it, or were likely to, and on release would be unlikely to do it again - whereas a gangland or contract killing would classify as a different type of crime.

Multiple murders would again classify differently from simply being "murders times x", and would be regarded as qualitatively different.

In court, that would lead to the Gardai arraigning someone for 'gangland murder', and the defence lawyers trying to get the charge reduced to ordinary murder. Where the charge is a more serious one, it should encompass the lesser one, so that the jury might find you 'not guilty' of the crime of 'gangland killing' while still being guilty of murder. If the accused were sufficiently penitent, the jury would then have the discretion to find them guilty of murder without condemning them to 'hard time'.

[ajcahill]

I think there is a need for a new prison facility into which those criminals who have committed violence crimes without remorse and for profit should be detained. Those who are genuinely seeking rehabilitation should continue to be facilitated within the existing prison system but the state needs to have a facility at its disposal which is about doing hard time.

Prison should be about three things, rehabilitation, protection of society, and punishment. I think we do the first rather badly, the 2nd is achieved only while those involved are inside and the latter appears to be lacking in that a portion of criminals do not appear to fear returning to prison.

This is about having a properly gradated approach to prison not about treating all prisoners the same. We've heard a lot about the need for services within prison and I agree with the intent for those prisoners who are prepared to make the effort to reform but for those who are simply looking to do their time and then return to crime upon their release we need to also extend the range of options in the other direction.

Over 20% of people in Prision are there for non payment of fines less than 400 euro yet is costs more than 1600 euro to keep someone in prison per week, while more than 50% have not been convicted of a violent crime. Most in prison have addiction and mental health problems that if dealth with would keep them from reoffending. Maybe if we stopped using prison as a dust bin for society we would have a better society and be able to focus resources on catching and keeping the dangerous people in prison. But in Killinaskully politics Enda and Brian's followers say string them up!!!, all of them!!!. It won't solve the problem but boy does it sound good on radio and TV.

[Gimpanzee]

You would have to define it by crime. So murder of a domestic kind, say, would carry the presumption that you probably regretted it, or were likely to, and on release would be unlikely to do it again - whereas a gangland or contract killing would classify as a different type of crime.

Multiple murders would again classify differently from simply being "murders times x", and would be regarded as qualitatively different.

In court, that would lead to the Gardai arraigning someone for 'gangland murder', and the defence lawyers trying to get the charge reduced to ordinary murder. Where the charge is a more serious one, it should encompass the lesser one, so that the jury might find you 'not guilty' of the crime of 'gangland killing' while still being guilty of murder. If the accused were sufficiently penitent, the jury would then have the discretion to find them guilty of murder without condemning them to 'hard time'.

That sounds fairly reasonable. Didn't we have something like this on the books previously for killing a Guard? No idea what form it took though.

[smitchy2]

There really is no point of been outraged t 1 single act of atrocity and pretend we suddenly have to do something urgent.
We live in a country which has a “progressive” justice and criminal system.
If you lock people up for longer it does not change them.
I agree that prisoners should have to work on road and clean up projects around the country rather than just sit in a cell conjuring up more crime.

The key problem in Limerick appears to gather evidence that can be used to prosecute cases. The current laws do not seem to be able to prevent this.

It is embarrassing that the guards cannot control a core group of people after being provided with extensive resources. If locations of these 50-100 gang members are known- why is there not random house searches on these premises to confiscate whatever they are making their thousands on.

[Gimpanzee]

Over 20% of people in Prision are there for non payment of fines less than 400 euro yet is costs more than 1600 euro to keep someone in prison per week, while more than 50% have not been convicted of a violent crime. Most in prison have addiction and mental health problems that if dealth with would keep them from reoffending. Maybe if we stopped using prison as a dust bin for society we would have a better society and be able to focus resources on catching and keeping the dangerous people in prison. But in Killinaskully politics Enda and Brian's followers say string them up!!!, all of them!!!. It won't solve the problem but boy does it sound good on radio and TV.

Any source for that 20% figure? Sounds ridiculously high. Particularly given that the sentences for non-payment of fines would be so short relative to other offences that the vast majority of people who go to prison in any given year would have to be there for non-payment of fines.

[Gimpanzee]

The key problem in Limerick appears to gather evidence that can be used to prosecute cases. The current laws do not seem to be able to prevent this.

As I understand it the conviction rate for Limerick gangland murders is relatively high - convictions aren't the problem - it is stopping the murders from happening in the first place. Getting caught and doing time doesn't appear to be a sufficient deterrent.