The Axing of Ahern (Dermot, that is)

[NotDevsSon]

The demotion of Dermot Ahern got little coverage in the media. Some journalists even saw it as a promotion, or at least a move sideways.

It was anything but.

Justice SHOULD be a key portfolio. The equivalents internationally (Home Secretary, Secretary of the Interior, Minister of the Interior) is often a major post. In Britain it is regarded as one of the big three, alongside Foreign Secretary and Chancellor the the Exchequer.

In Ireland however it has always been seen as a very junior post, important but junior. That is why it is almost always held by new cabinet ministers.

Charlie Haughey entered cabinet with it in 1961.
Brian Lenihan Sr did similarly in 1964.
It could be left in the hands of alcoholic, Michael O Morain in the late 1960s because it wasn't thought too sensitive.
Dessie O'Malley started his cabinet career in it in 1970.
Paddy Cooney was the last minister chosen, as an afterthought, and given the job in 1973.
Sean Doherty was given it in 1982.
Michael Noonan started off there in 1982.

Haughey later in the career began putting experienced politicians in it in the late 1980s and early 1990s, but it later resorted back to being the 'junior's job', the job given to some up and coming Minister of State to test him or her out.

John O'Donoghue entered cabinet in Justice in 1997. And of course Michael McDowell was put there (by choice) as his first departmental responsibility.

In 2007 Brian Lenihan Jr, in his first cabinet job was given Justice.

Foreign Affairs is one of the big jobs in government in terms of status - you are Mr or Ms Ireland on the world stage. You hob-nob with kings, queens and presidents, drink fine wines and travel a hell of a lot. To go from one of the most prestigious jobs, to the 'junior's job', is a slap in the face for Ahern. It moves him from the highflying foreign minister to the replacement of someone only a wet-week in cabinet.

Cowen desperately wanted out of Foreign Affairs - all the travelling eventually becomes headwrecking - but he wanted one of the big jobs in government, Finance or Enterprise Trade and Employment. Justice is important, but it is the testers job used to test new ministers. It isn't what a former foreign minister expects.

It is a dump down, and he knows it.

[just_society]

It is certainly a demotion from Foreign affairs.

But I wouldn't for a second consider it a junior post.

[Aggressor]

Crap talk.

[NotDevsSon]

Crap talk.

Great in depth analysis there, Agg.

[FutureTaoiseach]

I disagree. You have a lot more executive power in the Dept. of Justice.

[bagel]

I disagree. You have a lot more executive power in the Dept. of Justice.

the way i read it, in foreign affairs you have a wow of a time, in justice you have problems and headaches;
min for foreign affairs visits barbados, min for justice visits mountjoy;
as junkets go, theres no comparison

[NotDevsSon]

I disagree. You have a lot more executive power in the Dept. of Justice.

Actually you don't, which is why ministers hate that department. You get the blame for everything yet you have very little ability to control things. You are in one of the most bureaucratic posts there is, what was known in government as the job from hell until Health took over. The job involves 70%+ firefighting, 20% dealing with less urgent law change, and less than 10% in longterm planning.

And as I say, if you want to see how junior it is, just look at how many times it has been given to brand new ministers joining the cabinet, rather than to experienced ministers moving from other departments. Ahern is the first minister moved to there from another department since Maire Geoghegan Quinn was put in there by Albert Reynolds in 1992.

BTW it is an open secret in government that Ahern is furious with having been giving this job. He had his heart set on Finance, or as second best Enterprise. He sees Justice as an insult and a massive demotion.

[Conor]

In Ireland however it has always been seen as a very junior post, important but junior. That is why it is almost always held by new cabinet ministers.

Charlie Haughey entered cabinet with it in 1961.
Brian Lenihan Sr did similarly in 1964.
It could be left in the hands of alcoholic, Michael O Morain in the late 1960s because it wasn't thought too sensitive.
Dessie O'Malley started his cabinet career in it in 1970.
Paddy Cooney was the last minister chosen, as an afterthought, and given the job in 1973.
Sean Doherty was given it in 1982.
Michael Noonan started off there in 1982.

Haughey later in the career began putting experienced politicians in it in the late 1980s and early 1990s, but it later resorted back to being the 'junior's job', the job given to some up and coming Minister of State to test him or her out.

John O'Donoghue entered cabinet in Justice in 1997. And of course Michael McDowell was put there (by choice) as his first departmental responsibility.

In 2007 Brian Lenihan Jr, in his first cabinet job was given Justice.

All of the FFers you mention, and MMcD, had a legal background before being placed in Justice. Do you think that might have been a factor, rather than status?

Also, FT is correct. The fact that so much of the department's work is reactive doesn't detract from the relative executive power of the minister compared to foreign affairs (the operations of which extend over decades) - if anything, it adds to it.