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  1. #61
    lostexpectation lostexpectation is offline

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    The spokesperson said while Mr Flanagan was asked about the liaison unit by Independents4Change TDs Clare Daly and Mick Wallace, he was not asked about the letter. Independent barrister set to oversee Department of Justice email probe | Irish Examiner

    still playing games
    Last edited by lostexpectation; 2nd December 2017 at 02:34 PM.
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  2. #62
    lostexpectation lostexpectation is offline

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    Transcript of Alan Kelly asking question about the Garda Charleton Tribunal Liaison Unit at the PAC

    https://www.kildarestreet.com/commit...7-11-23a.7#g20


    clifford explains concerns around the entity known as the Charleton liaison unit http://shr.gs/wmNsOUS

    the list of question AK asked about it https://www.labour.ie/news/2017/11/2...t-acted-on-ch/
    Last edited by lostexpectation; 2nd December 2017 at 08:01 PM.
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  3. #63
    Kilbarry1 Kilbarry1 is offline

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    Still Another Independent Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by lostexpectation View Post
    The spokesperson said while Mr Flanagan was asked about the liaison unit by Independents4Change TDs Clare Daly and Mick Wallace, he was not asked about the letter. Independent barrister set to oversee Department of Justice email probe | Irish Examiner

    still playing games
    An independent barrister is likely to be appointed, potentially as soon as this weekend, to oversee an external inquiry into why the Department of Justice failed to hand over key Maurice McCabe email files to the Charleton Tribunal. Taoiseach Leo Varadkar confirmed the move after concerns were raised over initial plans to ask the Department of the Taoiseach’s secretary general Martin Fraser to lead the probe.

    In an initial statement to the Dáil as he announced Frances Fitzgerald’s resignation as tánaiste on Tuesday, Mr Varadkar said he was setting up an “external” inquiry into the “dysfunctional” Department of Justice with immediate effect.The inquiry was agreed as part of discussions with Fianna Fáil leader Micheal Martin, but was called into question by opposition parties as it was due to be led by the Department of the Taoiseach’s secretary general.

    In his weekly video message last night, Mr Varadkar said after considering the matter he will appoint an independent senior barrister to oversee the investigation. A senior government source said this is likely to take place over the coming days, and could occur as soon as this weekend....


    Let me guess. No conspiracy or wrongdoing will be discovered. AT MOST it will be found that the volume of work needed to answer numerous Parliamentary Questions from Alan Kelly and Co, simply overwhelmed the staff available to do the work!

    The basic issue is fairly straightforward. Sergeant Maurice McCabe claimed that FIVE of his superiors were corrupt - all the way from the Inspector who was his immediate boss right up to Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan. These claims were found by the O'Higgins Commission to be false and it was inevitable that the Gardai were going to contest them. But at the same time politicians, like the then Justice Minister Frances Fitzgerald, felt obliged to treat Sergeant McCabe as a paragon of virtue and truth. There was an obvious contradiction here. The way to avoid this in future is for claims by Whiste-blowers to be treated in the same way as any other allegations of wrong-doing. This means they are NOT to be automatically accepted OR rejected from the word go!

    https://irishsalem.blogspot.ie/2017/...d-corrupt.html
    Sergeant Maurice McCabe and "Corrupt" Garda Officers
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  4. #64
    Lumpy Talbot Lumpy Talbot is offline

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    and it was inevitable that the Gardai were going to contest them. But at the same time politicians, like the then Justice Minister Frances Fitzgerald, felt obliged to treat Sergeant McCabe as a paragon of virtue and truth. There was an obvious contradiction here.
    There are one or two obvious contradictions in your latest screed. Firstly the problem was not that Maurice McCabe's allegations were accepted as if they came from a 'paragon of virtue and truth' but that there was an entirely scurrilous attempt to discredit the man in an attempt to make the allegations go away rather than investigate them at all.

    And the Minister in being aware of the attempt to play the man and not the ball at the O'Higgins Inquiry became an accessory after the fact to that strategy.
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  5. #65
    lostexpectation lostexpectation is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by lostexpectation View Post
    The Disclosure Tribunal asked for any relevant information to be handed to it in February Opening Statement - Tribunal of Inquiry into protected disclosures made under the Protected Disclosures Act 2014 and certain other matters following Resolutions: Frances fitzgerald was Minister of Justice till June https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France...d_(politician)

    If Charlie Flanagan is handing over documents why did he not do so when Alan Kelly started asking these questions in early November.

    https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/...iggins#g1311.q did Alan Kelly not suggest that they knew since April 2015 rather then on the day or just after.

    Alan Kelly says protected disclosure saying Gardai had a strategy to go after McCabe in April 2015 http://www.rte.ie/cspodcasts/media.m...77501_232_.mp3 at 8 minutes

    he wants to know what the department knew about this
    Mr. John Barrett:

    I wrote a number of letters, Deputy, on this topic, setting out my views. My views go beyond the issue of resourcing
    https://www.kildarestreet.com/commit...7-11-23a.7#g20
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  6. #66
    Kilbarry1 Kilbarry1 is offline

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    Department of Justice and Assassination of its first Minister Kevin O'Higgins in 1927

    Diarmaid Ferriter has an article on the history of Dept of Justice in the Irish Times on 2 December - to show the background to the current Scandal/Hysteria
    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/d...nges-1.3311082
    Department of Justice has History of Dismissing Challenges

    It's behind a paywall but he stresses the huge challenges faced by the State in its early years - and the role of Dept of Justice and its first Minister Kevin O'Higgins..

    ... In most of these tasks civil servants played a key stabilising role and also generated much power for themselves. As JJ McElligott assistant secretary of department of finance in 1923 saw it, one of the advantages of the inexperience of O'Higgins and his colleagues and the distraction of the Civil War was that it allowed civil servants to get on with State building without too much political interference.

    It is no harm to remember this heritage in light of the turmoil witnessed this week. A viable democracy and effective Civil Service emerging in the most difficult of circumstances were two of the main achievements of that era. Another enduring legacy of that period was excessive centralisation, too much power in the hands of individual civil servants and contempt for those who sought to expose wrongdoing or ask troubling questions.


    On the assassination of Kevin O'Higgins in 1927

    "There are no real rules of war" O'Higgins insisted on defending the execution of anti-Treaty Republicans,: "The safety and preservation of the people is the highest law." The attempt to dehumanise his opponents Was propagandist caricature and and ignored the sincerity and depth of their feelings of betrayal.; just as he in turn was caricatured as a man whose heart had turned to stone. It had done nothing of the sort. In his colleague Eoin MacNeill's memoir of these fervid years, finally published last year, MacNeill recalled how he witnessed the assassination of of O'Higgins in 1927. As MacNeill cradled him., O'Higgins told him "I want you to say that I forgive my murderers".

    This was all the more remarkable given that four years previously during the Civil War, O'Higgins had buried his father after Republicans killed him during an attack on his house......


    Compare that to the behaviour of the current Minister for Justice who slandered former Sister of Mercy Nora Wall in the Dail in 2009 and who is now trying to blame his own civil servants for his political problems!

    Irish Salem: Justice Minister Charlie Flanagan and Former FG Chair Phil Hogan Vs George Hook and Nora Wall
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  7. #67
    Kilbarry1 Kilbarry1 is offline

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    The Sergeant and The Secretary-General: Can We Trust Our Civil Servants?

    I am copying some posts from the other thread which has 8,200 plus - so these could get lost!
    Frances Fitzgerald had advance notice of McCabe strategy


    Quote Originally Posted by lostexpectation View Post

    Deputy Alan Kelly: I thank the Taoiseach for the reply and correcting the record. It was an important point.

    There is an element of denial about what is going on. I spent a period of time at the Joint Committee on Justice and Equality this morning and genuinely ask the Taoiseach to ask his colleagues, Deputy Colm Brophy and Senator Martin Conway, who made good contributions about what happened. It was extraordinary. Given everything that has gone on and the information we have received through persistent questioning and with help from the media, we still have departmental officials coming to the committee to state the Department provided the information that it had been requested to provide during discovery. That is it - nothing has changed. The meeting was deeply worrying. I asked a specific question. I asked if private email addresses that potentially had been used by senior officials for departmental business and mobile phone records had been provided for the tribunal. The answer was that they had not been asked for them. I had to ask the officials to ask Mr. Justice Charleton if he wanted this information. Is that not crazy? Has anything changed? We were also told that the information provided had been provided based on the questions asked and that there might be other documentation available. In effect, they are acting as judge and jury and as a filtering system in providing information for the Charleton tribunal. The trawl has not changed anything. The culture has not changed.
    DOJ not asked don't tell Dáil Éireann - 06/Dec/2017 Commissions of Investigation (Continued)
    I wrote a blog article with the above title and the following is a summary:
    https://irishsalem.blogspot.ie/2017/...neral-can.html
    The Sergeant and The Secretary-General: Can We Trust Our Civil Servants?

    MY COMMENT:
    There is a discussion on the politics.ie website regarding the topic "Charlie Flanagan Next" and at one point I tried to summarise as follows:
    The basic issue is fairly straightforward. Sergeant Maurice McCabe claimed that FIVE of his superiors were corrupt - all the way from the Inspector who was his immediate boss right up to Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan. These claims were found by the O'Higgins Commission to be false and it was inevitable that the Gardai were going to contest them. But at the same time politicians, like the then Justice Minister Frances Fitzgerald, felt obliged to treat Sergeant McCabe as a paragon of virtue and truth. There was an obvious contradiction there. The way to avoid this in future is for claims by Whiste-blowers to be treated in the same way as any other allegations of wrong-doing. This means they are NOT to be automatically accepted OR rejected from the word go!

    The politicians - including Taoiseach (Prime Minister) Leo Varadkar and current Justice Minister Charlie Flanagan - have tried to iron out the contradiction and evade responsibility by accusing their civil servants of failing to supply them with accurate information. One result of their behaviour is that it will be very difficult to find anyone of suitable caliber to replace Noel Waters as Secretary General of the Department of Justice. His predecessor Brian Purcell was obliged to step aside in similar dubious circumstances in 2014. Noel Waters was originally supposed to fill the position on a temporary basis for a few weeks until a new Secretary General was appointed but no suitable candidate emerged to accept the poisoned chalice. So who on earth is going to accept it now?
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  8. #68
    Kilbarry1 Kilbarry1 is offline

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    Originally Posted by redmonite
    The reason Fitzgerald felt obliged to cosey up to McCabe was the media feeding frenzy which led to Shatter s resignation. She bought into the lie that McCabe was truthful in all his allegations. Unfortunately this is still the false media narrative which is still in operation , dare we call it "fake news"?
    Originally Posted by talkingshop
    Well they're clever enough not to lie outright but yes the whole picture they contrive to give is false. They claim that O'Higgins "vindicated" McCabe, while neglecting to mention all the very serious allegations of corruption he made that were unfounded, or the other accusations that were exaggerated as well. In fact we never saw McCabe's allegations so we're not even in a position to know how many were substantiated (if could be as low as 30% for all we know).

    Then the entire narrative of the brave whistleblower, disadvantaging himself for the good of policing etc. From what I've read McCabe's first official complaint in 2008 was in fact a complaint under the bullying and harassment policy - it was a complaint about alleged treatment of himself, not whistleblowing at all.
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  9. #69
    Kilbarry1 Kilbarry1 is offline

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    Summary of O'Higgins Report

    More from other thread Frances Fitzgerald had advance notice of McCabe strategy

    Quote Originally Posted by eoghanacht View Post
    From what you've read.

    Tell us talkingshît what you have read, what serious allegations were unfounded?
    There is a summary of the O'Higgins Report here
    https://irishsalem.blogspot.ie/2017/...d-corrupt.html
    Sergeant Maurice McCabe and "Corrupt" Garda Officers

    In Brief:

    (i) The report cleared the former Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan of an allegation of corruption made by Sgt McCabe regarding the alleged placement of a senior officer on a promotion list. The allegation had no foundation
    .
    (ii) Complaints of corruption made by Sgt McCabe against Assistant Commissioner Derek Byrne, Chief Superintendent Colm Rooney and Superintendent Michael Clancy were all found to be hurtful and unfounded. Sergeant McCabe also made allegations against his immediate superior Inspector Noel Cunningham– later promoted to superintendent. These were also dismissed and categorised as “unjustified criticism".

    (iii) Claims of corruption in investigations The report found no evidence of garda criminality or corruption, but found junior gardaí were allowed investigate cases without sufficient supervision from more senior officers.

    (iv) The former Justice Minister Alan Shatter was also completely vindicated in the report. The commission of investigation found that Mr Shatter, who was the subject of an unprecedented, hate-filled campaign, did indeed take Sergeant McCabe's allegations "very seriously" and his actions on the matter were "entirely reasonable and appropriate". (Note: It was actually the publication of the report by Sean Guerin SC in May 2014 that caused the resignation of Alan Shatter - not testimony by Sergeant McCabe.)

    MY QUERY:How is it possible for anyone to mistakenly accuse FIVE superior officers - and some colleagues - of corruption?
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  10. #70
    valamhic valamhic is offline

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    Shane Ross had the ball at his foot after the last election. He was on about appointment of Judges, the Gardai and other justice related matters but he accepted transport, Minister for parking tickets.

    He was a coward, he should be in their now rectifying the situation.

    Contrast that with Eamon Ryan and John Gormley who demanded and got Ministries they wanted.
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