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  1. #8271
    eoghanacht eoghanacht is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by talkingshop View Post
    Well they're clever enough not to lie outright but yes the whole picture they contrive to give is false. They claim that O'Higgins "vindicated" McCabe, while neglecting to mention all the very serious allegations of corruption he made that were unfounded, or the other accusations that were exaggerated as well. In fact we never saw McCabe's allegations so we're not even in a position to know how many were substantiated (if could be as low as 30% for all we know).

    Then the entire narrative of the brave whistleblower, disadvantaging himself for the good of policing etc. From what I've read McCabe's first official complaint in 2008 was in fact a complaint under the bullying and harassment policy - it was a complaint about alleged treatment of himself, not whistleblowing at all.
    From what you've read.

    Tell us talkingshît what you have read, what serious allegations were unfounded?
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  2. #8272
    talkingshop talkingshop is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by eoghanacht View Post
    From what you've read.

    Tell us talkingshît what you have read, what serious allegations were unfounded?
    Why do you even bother? Anyone who is remotely familiar with the Maurice McCabe story knows about the O'Higgins report. I'm not going to spoonfeed you at this stage.
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  3. #8273
    Kilbarry1 Kilbarry1 is offline

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    Summary of O'Higgins Report

    Originally Posted by talkingshop
    Well they're clever enough not to lie outright but yes the whole picture they contrive to give is false. They claim that O'Higgins "vindicated" McCabe, while neglecting to mention all the very serious allegations of corruption he made that were unfounded, or the other accusations that were exaggerated as well. In fact we never saw McCabe's allegations so we're not even in a position to know how many were substantiated (if could be as low as 30% for all we know).

    Then the entire narrative of the brave whistleblower, disadvantaging himself for the good of policing etc. From what I've read McCabe's first official complaint in 2008 was in fact a complaint under the bullying and harassment policy - it was a complaint about alleged treatment of himself, not whistleblowing at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by eoghanacht View Post
    From what you've read.

    Tell us talkingshît what you have read, what serious allegations were unfounded?
    Thee is a summary of the O'Higgins Report here
    https://irishsalem.blogspot.ie/2017/...d-corrupt.html
    Sergeant Maurice McCabe and "Corrupt" Garda Officers

    In Brief:

    (i) The report cleared the former Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan of an allegation of corruption made by Sgt McCabe regarding the alleged placement of a senior officer on a promotion list. The allegation had no foundation
    .
    (ii) Complaints of corruption made by Sgt McCabe against Assistant Commissioner Derek Byrne, Chief Superintendent Colm Rooney and Superintendent Michael Clancy were all found to be hurtful and unfounded. Sergeant McCabe also made allegations against his immediate superior Inspector Noel Cunningham– later promoted to superintendent. These were also dismissed and categorised as “unjustified criticism".

    (iii) Claims of corruption in investigations The report found no evidence of garda criminality or corruption, but found junior gardaí were allowed investigate cases without sufficient supervision from more senior officers.

    (iv) The former Justice Minister Alan Shatter was also completely vindicated in the report. The commission of investigation found that Mr Shatter, who was the subject of an unprecedented, hate-filled campaign, did indeed take Sergeant McCabe's allegations "very seriously" and his actions on the matter were "entirely reasonable and appropriate". (Note: It was actually the publication of the report by Sean Guerin SC in May 2014 that caused the resignation of Alan Shatter - not testimony by Sergeant McCabe.)

    MY QUERY:How is it possible for anyone to mistakenly accuse FIVE superior officers - and some colleagues - of corruption?
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  4. #8274
    lostexpectation lostexpectation is offline

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    heres the justice comission from the other day, the new acting general secretary says "we knows nothing" Committee Debate - Meeting of the Joint Committee on Justice and Equality, Wednesday 6 December 2017 -Webcast Recording. - Tithe an Oireachtais too much focus on specific discovery orders and on not on the general request of Charleton for information

    the dept keeps miscontruing questions about telling the Dail versus telling the tribunal


    dept says it didn't recognise the 15th of may as significant untl a pq was asked about it....can't find which pq they mean. (did the o'higgins commission have it own website.)


    these are the first set of question AK asked https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2017-11-07a.1310&s=o%27higgins+speaker%3A287#g1311.q

    https://www.kildarestreet.com/debate...3A6950184#g638
    Last edited by lostexpectation; 8th December 2017 at 03:12 PM.
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  5. #8275
    talkingshop talkingshop is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilbarry1 View Post
    Thee is a summary of the O'Higgins Report here
    https://irishsalem.blogspot.ie/2017/...d-corrupt.html
    Sergeant Maurice McCabe and "Corrupt" Garda Officers

    In Brief:

    (i) The report cleared the former Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan of an allegation of corruption made by Sgt McCabe regarding the alleged placement of a senior officer on a promotion list. The allegation had no foundation
    .
    (ii) Complaints of corruption made by Sgt McCabe against Assistant Commissioner Derek Byrne, Chief Superintendent Colm Rooney and Superintendent Michael Clancy were all found to be hurtful and unfounded. Sergeant McCabe also made allegations against his immediate superior Inspector Noel Cunningham– later promoted to superintendent. These were also dismissed and categorised as “unjustified criticism".

    (iii) Claims of corruption in investigations The report found no evidence of garda criminality or corruption, but found junior gardaí were allowed investigate cases without sufficient supervision from more senior officers.

    (iv) The former Justice Minister Alan Shatter was also completely vindicated in the report. The commission of investigation found that Mr Shatter, who was the subject of an unprecedented, hate-filled campaign, did indeed take Sergeant McCabe's allegations "very seriously" and his actions on the matter were "entirely reasonable and appropriate". (Note: It was actually the publication of the report by Sean Guerin SC in May 2014 that caused the resignation of Alan Shatter - not testimony by Sergeant McCabe.)

    MY QUERY:How is it possible for anyone to mistakenly accuse FIVE superior officers - and some colleagues - of corruption?
    I would say the whole thing is a mix - he developed a personal grievance against certain superior officers, and wanted to get back at them. He also genuinely was a bit of stickler for the rules, and didn't like the way some things were being done, and found some practices sloppy (correctly I would say). So he had dual motives - personal issues first, but he also genuinely thought it was good to bring the instances of poor practice to a higher level. His original complaints were reacted to in the Guards by a high level investigation - the O'Byrne-McGinn investigation, which found 11, I think, of his issues substantiated (I don't know how many issues he raised).

    But he couldn't stop there, he then started complaining that O'Byrne-McGinn weren't objective - he got a review of their investigation at a higher level - wasn't satisfied with that either. Then he started on confidential recipients, GSOC, Minister for Justice, politicians - and probably at this point he started raising his allegations to "corruption" - to get them treated more seriously -even though it all started about a bullying complaint.
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  6. #8276
    eoghanacht eoghanacht is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by talkingshop View Post
    Why do you even bother? Anyone who is remotely familiar with the Maurice McCabe story knows about the O'Higgins report. I'm not going to spoonfeed you at this stage.
    Links petal links.

    Not your opinion.
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  7. #8277
    Kilbarry1 Kilbarry1 is offline

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    Summary of O'Higgins Report [2]

    Quote Originally Posted by talkingshop View Post
    I would say the whole thing is a mix - he developed a personal grievance against certain superior officers, and wanted to get back at them. He also genuinely was a bit of stickler for the rules, and didn't like the way some things were being done, and found some practices sloppy (correctly I would say). So he had dual motives - personal issues first, but he also genuinely thought it was good to bring the instances of poor practice to a higher level. His original complaints were reacted to in the Guards by a high level investigation - the O'Byrne-McGinn investigation, which found 11, I think, of his issues substantiated (I don't know how many issues he raised).

    But he couldn't stop there, he then started complaining that O'Byrne-McGinn weren't objective - he got a review of their investigation at a higher level - wasn't satisfied with that either. Then he started on confidential recipients, GSOC, Minister for Justice, politicians - and probably at this point he started raising his allegations to "corruption" - to get them treated more seriously -even though it all started about a bullying complaint.
    Well that might explain the somewhat double-edged findings of O'Higgins. I highlighted the failings above but - according to the RTE report by Paul Reynolds on 9 May 2016:
    https://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0509/78...aurice-mccabe/
    Report: McCabe dedicated but prone to exaggeration

    Sgt McCabe is described as "the central figure in the investigation." The report says he acted out of "genuine and legitimate concerns, showed courage, and performed a public service at considerable personal cost and the commission believes he is due the gratitude of the general public and also An Garda Síochána."

    It said he was "a dedicated and committed member" of An Garda Síochána, but "prone to exaggeration", and while some of his complaints were upheld, others were proven to be "overstated", "exaggerated", "unfounded” and ultimately "withdrawn"....


    I'm not exactly neutral on this issue, but I was genuinely puzzled by the praise for Sergeant McCabe when taken in combination with the list of his allegations that O'Higgins indicated were false!
    Last edited by Kilbarry1; 8th December 2017 at 01:07 AM. Reason: spelling
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  8. #8278
    valamhic valamhic is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by eoghanacht View Post
    Links petal links.

    Not your opinion.
    Oh you play coastal golf, that will get you promoted in the Gardai
    Last edited by valamhic; 8th December 2017 at 09:31 AM.
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  9. #8279
    valamhic valamhic is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilbarry1 View Post
    I wrote a blog article with the above title and the following is a summary:
    https://irishsalem.blogspot.ie/2017/...neral-can.html
    The Sergeant and The Secretary-General: Can We Trust Our Civil Servants?

    MY COMMENT:
    There is a discussion on the politics.ie website regarding the topic "Charlie Flanagan Next" and at one point I tried to summarise as follows:
    The basic issue is fairly straightforward. Sergeant Maurice McCabe claimed that FIVE of his superiors were corrupt - all the way from the Inspector who was his immediate boss right up to Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan. These claims were found by the O'Higgins Commission to be false and it was inevitable that the Gardai were going to contest them. But at the same time politicians, like the then Justice Minister Frances Fitzgerald, felt obliged to treat Sergeant McCabe as a paragon of virtue and truth. There was an obvious contradiction there. The way to avoid this in future is for claims by Whiste-blowers to be treated in the same way as any other allegations of wrong-doing. This means they are NOT to be automatically accepted OR rejected from the word go!

    The politicians - including Taoiseach (Prime Minister) Leo Varadkar and current Justice Minister Charlie Flanagan - have tried to iron out the contradiction and evade responsibility by accusing their civil servants of failing to supply them with accurate information. One result of their behaviour is that it will be very difficult to find anyone of suitable caliber to replace Noel Waters as Secretary General of the Department of Justice. His predecessor Brian Purcell was obliged to step aside in similar dubious circumstances in 2014. Noel Waters was originally supposed to fill the position on a temporary basis for a few weeks until a new Secretary General was appointed but no suitable candidate emerged to accept the poisoned chalice. So who on earth is going to accept it now?
    I'll take it for 300,000 for one year. That is all it will take to search for the remaining files. The department gets away with murder because it holds all the secret files on internal and external affairs.
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  10. #8280
    valamhic valamhic is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by talkingshop View Post
    I would say the whole thing is a mix - he developed a personal grievance against certain superior officers, and wanted to get back at them. He also genuinely was a bit of stickler for the rules, and didn't like the way some things were being done, and found some practices sloppy (correctly I would say). So he had dual motives - personal issues first, but he also genuinely thought it was good to bring the instances of poor practice to a higher level. His original complaints were reacted to in the Guards by a high level investigation - the O'Byrne-McGinn investigation, which found 11, I think, of his issues substantiated (I don't know how many issues he raised).

    But he couldn't stop there, he then started complaining that O'Byrne-McGinn weren't objective - he got a review of their investigation at a higher level - wasn't satisfied with that either. Then he started on confidential recipients, GSOC, Minister for Justice, politicians - and probably at this point he started raising his allegations to "corruption" - to get them treated more seriously -even though it all started about a bullying complaint.
    The people at the top of the Garda Siochana are not capable of assessing candidates for promotion within the ranks. If for example, a young person sets out to study police management and all that goes with it, Having gained that, they join the Guards and is posted to a station.. They then do all the exams and make it to Sergeant and is a very balanced intelligent police man/woman.

    All it takes is one supervisor, an Inspector, Superintendent or Chief Superintendent to take a dislike at their objectivity and their career is finished. The problem is the selection process is controlled by the product of a previous selection process. Its the same as the way I breed cattle on my farm. The herd I have now is the result of decisions I made several years ago. Francis Fitzgerald was appointed for no other reason than she was a woman. Her ability was incidental.
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