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  1. #8271
    Kilbarry1 Kilbarry1 is offline

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    The Sergeant and The Secretary-General: Can We Trust Our Civil Servants?

    Quote Originally Posted by lostexpectation View Post

    Deputy Alan Kelly: I thank the Taoiseach for the reply and correcting the record. It was an important point.

    There is an element of denial about what is going on. I spent a period of time at the Joint Committee on Justice and Equality this morning and genuinely ask the Taoiseach to ask his colleagues, Deputy Colm Brophy and Senator Martin Conway, who made good contributions about what happened. It was extraordinary. Given everything that has gone on and the information we have received through persistent questioning and with help from the media, we still have departmental officials coming to the committee to state the Department provided the information that it had been requested to provide during discovery. That is it - nothing has changed. The meeting was deeply worrying. I asked a specific question. I asked if private email addresses that potentially had been used by senior officials for departmental business and mobile phone records had been provided for the tribunal. The answer was that they had not been asked for them. I had to ask the officials to ask Mr. Justice Charleton if he wanted this information. Is that not crazy? Has anything changed? We were also told that the information provided had been provided based on the questions asked and that there might be other documentation available. In effect, they are acting as judge and jury and as a filtering system in providing information for the Charleton tribunal. The trawl has not changed anything. The culture has not changed.
    DOJ not asked don't tell Dáil Éireann - 06/Dec/2017 Commissions of Investigation (Continued)
    I wrote a blog article with the above title and the following is a summary:
    https://irishsalem.blogspot.ie/2017/...neral-can.html
    The Sergeant and The Secretary-General: Can We Trust Our Civil Servants?

    MY COMMENT:
    There is a discussion on the politics.ie website regarding the topic "Charlie Flanagan Next" and at one point I tried to summarise as follows:
    The basic issue is fairly straightforward. Sergeant Maurice McCabe claimed that FIVE of his superiors were corrupt - all the way from the Inspector who was his immediate boss right up to Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan. These claims were found by the O'Higgins Commission to be false and it was inevitable that the Gardai were going to contest them. But at the same time politicians, like the then Justice Minister Frances Fitzgerald, felt obliged to treat Sergeant McCabe as a paragon of virtue and truth. There was an obvious contradiction there. The way to avoid this in future is for claims by Whiste-blowers to be treated in the same way as any other allegations of wrong-doing. This means they are NOT to be automatically accepted OR rejected from the word go!

    The politicians - including Taoiseach (Prime Minister) Leo Varadkar and current Justice Minister Charlie Flanagan - have tried to iron out the contradiction and evade responsibility by accusing their civil servants of failing to supply them with accurate information. One result of their behaviour is that it will be very difficult to find anyone of suitable caliber to replace Noel Waters as Secretary General of the Department of Justice. His predecessor Brian Purcell was obliged to step aside in similar dubious circumstances in 2014. Noel Waters was originally supposed to fill the position on a temporary basis for a few weeks until a new Secretary General was appointed but no suitable candidate emerged to accept the poisoned chalice. So who on earth is going to accept it now?
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  2. #8272
    redmonite redmonite is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilbarry1 View Post
    I wrote a blog article with the above title and the following is a summary:
    https://irishsalem.blogspot.ie/2017/...neral-can.html
    The Sergeant and The Secretary-General: Can We Trust Our Civil Servants?

    MY COMMENT:
    There is a discussion on the politics.ie website regarding the topic "Charlie Flanagan Next" and at one point I tried to summarise as follows:
    The basic issue is fairly straightforward. Sergeant Maurice McCabe claimed that FIVE of his superiors were corrupt - all the way from the Inspector who was his immediate boss right up to Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan. These claims were found by the O'Higgins Commission to be false and it was inevitable that the Gardai were going to contest them. But at the same time politicians, like the then Justice Minister Frances Fitzgerald, felt obliged to treat Sergeant McCabe as a paragon of virtue and truth. There was an obvious contradiction there. The way to avoid this in future is for claims by Whiste-blowers to be treated in the same way as any other allegations of wrong-doing. This means they are NOT to be automatically accepted OR rejected from the word go!

    The politicians - including Taoiseach (Prime Minister) Leo Varadkar and current Justice Minister Charlie Flanagan - have tried to iron out the contradiction and evade responsibility by accusing their civil servants of failing to supply them with accurate information. One result of their behaviour is that it will be very difficult to find anyone of suitable caliber to replace Noel Waters as Secretary General of the Department of Justice. His predecessor Brian Purcell was obliged to step aside in similar dubious circumstances in 2014. Noel Waters was originally supposed to fill the position on a temporary basis for a few weeks until a new Secretary General was appointed but no suitable candidate emerged to accept the poisoned chalice. So who on earth is going to accept it now?
    The reason Fitzgerald felt obliged to cosey up to McCabe was the media feeding frenzy which led to Shatter s resignation. She bought into the lie that McCabe was truthful in all his allegations. Unfortunately this is still the false media narrative which is still in operation , dare we call it "fake news"?
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  3. #8273
    james toney james toney is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by tipofdiceberg View Post
    One of the DOJ whistleblowers has stated that Fitzgerald discussed the emails with her advisors. The whistleblower was party to the discussions.
    Losing track of all the lies from Fine Gael,Gardai,and the DOJ.
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  4. #8274
    Analyzer Analyzer is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by redmonite View Post
    The reason Fitzgerald felt obliged to cosey up to McCabe was the media feeding frenzy which led to Shatter s resignation. She bought into the lie that McCabe was truthful in all his allegations. Unfortunately this is still the false media narrative which is still in operation , dare we call it "fake news"?
    Somebody better alert the maFFia.

    They seem to be engaging in a lot of posturing on the topic.
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  5. #8275
    Analyzer Analyzer is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmw1 View Post
    dont bet your christmas bonus on that foolishness
    Of course. FG can do just about anything immoral, illegal, incompetent and inept.

    And the media oligopoly will cover it all up.

    Focus on Leo's socks. Put on a green jersey. Bread & circuses.

    It always amounts to the same Irish media narrative.

    Don't ask questions. Believe what authority instructs you. Mick Wallace, Ming, Daly and other dissenting voices cannot be trusted.There is no corruptoon at the moment. It is all the fault of the civil servants. Nobody in rte seen anybody on cocaine. And other assorted repeated bullsh1t.
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  6. #8276
    talkingshop talkingshop is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by redmonite View Post
    The reason Fitzgerald felt obliged to cosey up to McCabe was the media feeding frenzy which led to Shatter s resignation. She bought into the lie that McCabe was truthful in all his allegations. Unfortunately this is still the false media narrative which is still in operation , dare we call it "fake news"?
    Well they're clever enough not to lie outright but yes the whole picture they contrive to give is false. They claim that O'Higgins "vindicated" McCabe, while neglecting to mention all the very serious allegations of corruption he made that were unfounded, or the other accusations that were exaggerated as well. In fact we never saw McCabe's allegations so we're not even in a position to know how many were substantiated (if could be as low as 30% for all we know).

    Then the entire narrative of the brave whistleblower, disadvantaging himself for the good of policing etc. From what I've read McCabe's first official complaint in 2008 was in fact a complaint under the bullying and harassment policy - it was a complaint about alleged treatment of himself, not whistleblowing at all.
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  7. #8277
    eoghanacht eoghanacht is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by talkingshop View Post
    Well they're clever enough not to lie outright but yes the whole picture they contrive to give is false. They claim that O'Higgins "vindicated" McCabe, while neglecting to mention all the very serious allegations of corruption he made that were unfounded, or the other accusations that were exaggerated as well. In fact we never saw McCabe's allegations so we're not even in a position to know how many were substantiated (if could be as low as 30% for all we know).

    Then the entire narrative of the brave whistleblower, disadvantaging himself for the good of policing etc. From what I've read McCabe's first official complaint in 2008 was in fact a complaint under the bullying and harassment policy - it was a complaint about alleged treatment of himself, not whistleblowing at all.
    From what you've read.

    Tell us talkingshît what you have read, what serious allegations were unfounded?
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  8. #8278
    talkingshop talkingshop is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by eoghanacht View Post
    From what you've read.

    Tell us talkingshît what you have read, what serious allegations were unfounded?
    Why do you even bother? Anyone who is remotely familiar with the Maurice McCabe story knows about the O'Higgins report. I'm not going to spoonfeed you at this stage.
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  9. #8279
    Kilbarry1 Kilbarry1 is offline

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    Summary of O'Higgins Report

    Originally Posted by talkingshop
    Well they're clever enough not to lie outright but yes the whole picture they contrive to give is false. They claim that O'Higgins "vindicated" McCabe, while neglecting to mention all the very serious allegations of corruption he made that were unfounded, or the other accusations that were exaggerated as well. In fact we never saw McCabe's allegations so we're not even in a position to know how many were substantiated (if could be as low as 30% for all we know).

    Then the entire narrative of the brave whistleblower, disadvantaging himself for the good of policing etc. From what I've read McCabe's first official complaint in 2008 was in fact a complaint under the bullying and harassment policy - it was a complaint about alleged treatment of himself, not whistleblowing at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by eoghanacht View Post
    From what you've read.

    Tell us talkingshît what you have read, what serious allegations were unfounded?
    Thee is a summary of the O'Higgins Report here
    https://irishsalem.blogspot.ie/2017/...d-corrupt.html
    Sergeant Maurice McCabe and "Corrupt" Garda Officers

    In Brief:

    (i) The report cleared the former Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan of an allegation of corruption made by Sgt McCabe regarding the alleged placement of a senior officer on a promotion list. The allegation had no foundation
    .
    (ii) Complaints of corruption made by Sgt McCabe against Assistant Commissioner Derek Byrne, Chief Superintendent Colm Rooney and Superintendent Michael Clancy were all found to be hurtful and unfounded. Sergeant McCabe also made allegations against his immediate superior Inspector Noel Cunningham– later promoted to superintendent. These were also dismissed and categorised as “unjustified criticism".

    (iii) Claims of corruption in investigations The report found no evidence of garda criminality or corruption, but found junior gardaí were allowed investigate cases without sufficient supervision from more senior officers.

    (iv) The former Justice Minister Alan Shatter was also completely vindicated in the report. The commission of investigation found that Mr Shatter, who was the subject of an unprecedented, hate-filled campaign, did indeed take Sergeant McCabe's allegations "very seriously" and his actions on the matter were "entirely reasonable and appropriate". (Note: It was actually the publication of the report by Sean Guerin SC in May 2014 that caused the resignation of Alan Shatter - not testimony by Sergeant McCabe.)

    MY QUERY:How is it possible for anyone to mistakenly accuse FIVE superior officers - and some colleagues - of corruption?
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  10. #8280
    lostexpectation lostexpectation is offline

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    heres the justice comission from the other day, the new acting general secretary says "we knows nothing" Committee Debate - Meeting of the Joint Committee on Justice and Equality, Wednesday 6 December 2017 -Webcast Recording. - Tithe an Oireachtais too much focus on specific discovery orders and on not on the general request of Charleton for information

    the dept keeps miscontruing questions about telling the Dail versus telling the tribunal


    dept says it didn't recognise the 15th of may as significant untl a pq was asked about it....can't find which pq they mean. (did the o'higgins commission have it own website.)


    these are the first set of question AK asked https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2017-11-07a.1310&s=o%27higgins+speaker%3A287#g1311.q

    https://www.kildarestreet.com/debate...3A6950184#g638
    Last edited by lostexpectation; 8th December 2017 at 04:12 PM.
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