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  1. #1
    McTell McTell is offline
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    War crimes and mistakes; it's our mistake but never our fault.

    Strong essay from FOT about Birmingham in 1974; and how SF TDs are quick to fault serbs in the 1990s but aren't calling for enquiries about their associates' crimes.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-...tory-1.3153609


    This goes to the nub of why most of us over-40s in the south won't ever vote SF. A lot of keen reformist under-40s who might vote SF tell me they've changed, there never was a war, it was all someone else's fault, something to do with civil rights long ago, and what are ye havin yerself? This article explains our mentality, and you don't have to agree.

    We remember the pub visits selling papers, the way that the less intelligent got caught up in it, how an awful lot of killing was needed to guarantee civil rights for a minority of a minority. How fraternal it was with Cuba, the red brigades, the soviet empire, the basques, the PLO, Gadafy... all baaad-ass people.

    If the IRA had nothing to do with SF, then SF will have no problem criticising its crimes. If SF won't make that effort, then you're asking yourself why not...



    The same party that pledged on Tuesday in the Dáil to “continue to challenge and oppose any attempts” at “the glorification of war criminals” has never even been able to bring itself to describe Birmingham and similar massacres by the IRA as crimes.
    At the heart of this evasion is a brazen lie: that when the IRA slaughtered civilians it did so accidentally. Hayes, in his BBC interview, went so far as to claim that he and the other IRA members involved in the Birmingham bombings “had no intention of hurting anybody”. This might be dismissed as a grotesque absurdity if it did not encapsulate a larger rewriting of history in which the IRA was just a more robust version of the civil rights movement that acted reluctantly to defend Catholics from attack.
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  2. #2
    between the bridges between the bridges is offline
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    Shin Flake only want to recognize links to the 'good' provo's who walk on water and nat the 'bad' provo's who made mistakes, but nat forgetting that those mistakes were only made because themuns started it...
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  3. #3
    PO'Neill PO'Neill is offline

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    Don't all military action runs the risk of civilian death ? Tell me of a force or army that condemns itself for taking up arms and it's inevitable consequences. The fundamental difference between the two sides is that Provos were trying to overthrow an occupation force upholding a sectarian statelet, while the Brits/RUC/UDR/loyalists were trying to preserve that same institutional state thuggery.

    Does it bother you that the Free Sate and SDLP aided and abetting the Brits as much as possible in carrying out this violence in it's various guises McTell ?
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  4. #4
    PO'Neill PO'Neill is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by between the bridges View Post
    Shin Flake only want to recognize links to the 'good' provo's who walk on water and nat the 'bad' provo's who made mistakes, but nat forgetting that those mistakes were only made because themuns started it...
    What's so funny about the deaths of the first people in the troubles, all nationalists of course murdered by the guise of police force in the RUC and B Specials such as 67 year old Frank McCloskey beaten to death by the RUC and 9 year old Patrick Rooney when the RUC opened fire on the Divis Flats with live rounds from an armored car ? Almost as funny as poor Gordon's daughter and the rest of the cenotaph huggers crushed together in your home town eh bollox ?

    CAIN: Sutton Index of Deaths
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  5. #5
    hollandia hollandia is offline
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    Christ Almighty. That is all.
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  6. #6
    RasherHash RasherHash is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by McTell View Post
    Strong essay from FOT about Birmingham in 1974; and how SF TDs are quick to fault serbs in the 1990s but aren't calling for enquiries about their associates' crimes.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-...tory-1.3153609


    This goes to the nub of why most of us over-40s in the south won't ever vote SF. A lot of keen reformist under-40s who might vote SF tell me they've changed, there never was a war, it was all someone else's fault, something to do with civil rights long ago, and what are ye havin yerself? This article explains our mentality, and you don't have to agree.

    We remember the pub visits selling papers, the way that the less intelligent got caught up in it, how an awful lot of killing was needed to guarantee civil rights for a minority of a minority. How fraternal it was with Cuba, the red brigades, the soviet empire, the basques, the PLO, Gadafy... all baaad-ass people.

    If the IRA had nothing to do with SF, then SF will have no problem criticising its crimes. If SF won't make that effort, then you're asking yourself why not...



    The same party that pledged on Tuesday in the Dáil to “continue to challenge and oppose any attempts” at “the glorification of war criminals” has never even been able to bring itself to describe Birmingham and similar massacres by the IRA as crimes.
    At the heart of this evasion is a brazen lie: that when the IRA slaughtered civilians it did so accidentally. Hayes, in his BBC interview, went so far as to claim that he and the other IRA members involved in the Birmingham bombings “had no intention of hurting anybody”. This might be dismissed as a grotesque absurdity if it did not encapsulate a larger rewriting of history in which the IRA was just a more robust version of the civil rights movement that acted reluctantly to defend Catholics from attack.
    People have the right to fight for freedom and undoubtedly mistakes were made.

    All armies make mistakes and people die.

    I'm all for world peace and disarmament.

    Thanks.
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  7. #7
    IvoShandor IvoShandor is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by RasherHash View Post
    People have the right to fight for freedom and undoubtedly mistakes were made.

    All armies make mistakes and people die.

    I'm all for world peace and disarmament.

    Thanks.
    Enniskillen, Birmingham, Guildford, La Mon, Bloody Friday , even Claudy could be considered mistakes (although still, at best, recklessness).
    Kingsmills, Tullyvallen Orange hall, Teebane, Joanne Mathers:these were crimes, under any definition, not mistakes (unless under the skin-crawling PIRA notion that they were "mistakes", since, in hindsight, they did the cause more harm than good)
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  8. #8
    redneck redneck is offline
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    1974 was a terrible year. There was 2 major atrocities. The Dublin Monaghan bombings in May, and the Birmingham pub bombings in November.
    Neither should have happened in my opinion.
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  9. #9
    Niall996 Niall996 is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by IvoShandor View Post
    Enniskillen, Birmingham, Guildford, La Mon, Bloody Friday , even Claudy could be considered mistakes (although still, at best, recklessness).
    Kingsmills, Tullyvallen Orange hall, Teebane, Joanne Mathers:these were crimes, under any definition, not mistakes (unless under the skin-crawling PIRA notion that they were "mistakes", since, in hindsight, they did the cause more harm than good)
    I don't think you can call them mistakes. The chances/risk factor of people getting killed or maimed were simply too high. At some point extreme recklessness in putting bombs where innocent people are gathered en masse is criminal in itself - too many moving parts - too much can go wrong - and at some point almost certain to go wrong - and did go wrong, several times. That's unforgivable. And ultimately destroyed the IRA. Fighting recognised professional combatants in a war or destroying the 'machinery of state' as it were is one thing, chancing it with innocent lives is another. They may have 'hoped' no one was hurt nut that's way too lame I'm afraid. The deliberate stuff on the other side is just utterly unspeakable full stop.
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  10. #10
    PO'Neill PO'Neill is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Niall996 View Post
    I don't think you can call them mistakes. The chances/risk factor of people getting killed or maimed were simply too high. At some point extreme recklessness in putting bombs where innocent people are gathered en masse is criminal in itself - too many moving parts - too much can go wrong - and at some point almost certain to go wrong - and did go wrong, several times. That's unforgivable. And ultimately destroyed the IRA. Fighting recognised professional combatants in a war or destroying the 'machinery of state' as it were is one thing, chancing it with innocent lives is another. They may have 'hoped' no one was hurt nut that's way too lame I'm afraid. The deliberate stuff on the other side is just utterly unspeakable full stop.
    A combination of factors where often the cause of tragedies, bombs been detonated in transport by Brit scrambling devices or in position like when the Brits detonated the Enniskillen bomb, the instability of homemade explosives, detonating devices planted in IRA dumps to kill volunteers etc Regardless all ultimately victims of British occupation and the inevitable reaction to its violence.
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