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  1. #1021
    Careful now Careful now is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poppy39 View Post
    Particularly struck by this quote from the article:

    ''Sex work encourages rape by making men feel entitled to sex.''

    Abolitionists never fail to amaze with their bizarre soundbites.

    Does this make any more sense than: ''Marriage encourages rape by making men feel entitled to sex.''?

    Is there the slightest evidence that men who visit sex workers are more disposed to rape? More to the point, Sweden which has criminalised sex buyers since 1999, has the highest incidence of rape in Europe and one of the highest in the world.
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  2. #1022
    Leandrai Leandrai is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Careful now View Post

    ''Sex work encourages rape by making men feel entitled to sex.''
    One of the more preposterous superstitions. Accepting that you must pay for anything is a lowest common denominator, deep seated acceptance that you are not automatically entitled to it.

    Once upon a time people decoupled rape from sex work because they recognised that rape had little or nothing to do with sex and everything to do with imposing power and control...

    Then along came the madness and insisted sex work was about imposing power and control too, and not even in the more obvious and likely direction.

    I must TRY to remember, next time I pay my ESB bill, that I am, in fact, "imposing domination"....
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  3. #1023
    Paul Carr Paul Carr is offline
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    Comprehensive article by Men's Human Rights Ireland on the feminist campaign in Ireland and beyond to criminalize the purchase of sex.

    http://www.menshumanrightsireland.org/index.php?n=75
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  4. #1024
    ellie08 ellie08 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Carr View Post
    Comprehensive article by Men's Human Rights Ireland on the feminist campaign in Ireland and beyond to criminalize the purchase of sex.

    http://www.menshumanrightsireland.org/index.php?n=75
    Sad man
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  5. #1025
    garrulous garrulous is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by ellie08 View Post
    Sad man
    Why is he a sad man.
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  6. #1026
    sadmal sadmal is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Carr View Post
    Comprehensive article by Men's Human Rights Ireland on the feminist campaign in Ireland and beyond to criminalize the purchase of sex.

    http://www.menshumanrightsireland.org/index.php?n=75
    It would be a mistake to imply that all feminists are opposed to prostitution. I remember a video from the English Collective of Prostitutes addressing the House of Commons committee and feminists being present opposed to any change in the law and actually supporting the collective. It was posted here by a sex worker herself to show that support comes from all sides in this debate.
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  7. #1027
    Paul Carr Paul Carr is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by sadmal View Post
    It would be a mistake to imply that all feminists are opposed to prostitution. I remember a video from the English Collective of Prostitutes addressing the House of Commons committee and feminists being present opposed to any change in the law and actually supporting the collective. It was posted here by a sex worker herself to show that support comes from all sides in this debate.
    The state feminists do oppose prostitution. They are the ones who get the government funding. I agree with the article that in addition to Ruhama and Immigrant Council of Ireland, The National Women's Council of Ireland is one of the 3 principle energizers of the TORL campaign. Sex positive feminists in Ireland and elsewhere, in my opinion, tend to downplay the role of the NWCI in the TORL campaign. The central proposal is quintessentially feminist, criminalizing the purchaser of sex whilst simultaneously not criminalizing the seller of sex. This is derived from the state feminist theory of the patriarchal dominance that posits that all men are oppressing all women. The "Swedish Model" is seen as an antidote to this, rebalancing an alleged power imbalance between men and women by altering male behaviour by means of the threat of a criminal record and one's name and address printed in a newspaper or put online for the rest of eternity.

    The NWCI's campaign against "gender based violence" is related to the campaign to criminalize the purchase of sex. They are both motivated by the same gender feminism that portrays men as potential perpetrators and women as potential victims. This is despite the fact that it has now been established by hundreds of empirical studies over the past 30 years that domestic violence is a social problem and not a gender problem. In a domestic violence situation, men hit women as often as women hit men and at all levels of severity.

    REFERENCES EXAMINING ASSAULTS BY WOMEN ON THEIR SPOUSES OR MALE PARTNERS: AN ANNOTATED BIBLIOGRAPHY

    How feminists corrupt DV research

    http://www.menshumanrightsireland.org/index.php?n=49

    The scale of domestic violence has also been exaggerated by state feminist and international feminist commissioned bogus studies that return wildly inflated figures for domestic violence. 1 in 4 women a victim of domestic violence/sexual abuse/rape in her lifetime for example. Bogus studies are, of course, also used to justify the introduction of the Swedish model of criminalizing the purchase of sex such as greatly exaggerated claims that between 80% and 90% of all women in prostitution have been trafficked.

    Ideology trumps research for state feminists. Just like you have Melissa Farley were her bogus studies that greatly exaggerate alleged trafficking and coercion in adult sex work, you also have fellow feminists like Mary Koss who designed feminist questionnaires in the 1980s that were designed to exaggerate the scale of sexual abuse, rape and domestic violence in the home.
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  8. #1028
    TheGMB TheGMB is offline

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    I've posted strongly against liberalising prostitution given Germany and Hungary's experience with Human Trafficking increasing after liberalisation.

    Always trying to be fairminded I did find this a few days ago:

    For the first time the men and women selling sex indoors in Ireland have been asked about their lives. The findings harshly contradict the popular media image of sex workers in Ireland.

    The 195 escorts who took part in the survey were from 29 different countries. Most were aged in their 20s or 30s and highly educated. Just over half had worked in sex work in another country prior to becoming an escort in Ireland. 97.3 percent were self-employed independent escorts, though 33.3 percent had experience of working for a third party, e.g. an escort agency, in Ireland or elsewhere in the past.

    Despite it being popularly reported in the media that children are involved in prostitution, there was no evidence of the involvement of any under 16s and only one participant was aged under 18.

    Participants reported low alcohol and drug use, high condom use, and taking a number of security measures whilst working as an escort, the top ones being not getting in cars with clients (65.3 percent), taking more precautions when it is a new client (58.1 percent) and not working alone (41.1 percent) despite the laws in both the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland that force escorts to work alone if they want to work legally.

    Ireland’s sex worker population overwhelmingly works indoors with access to phones and the Internet, which are safe conditions in comparison to outdoor sex working. However, many of the participants reported experiences of a wide range of crime and abuses. It is also clear that a wide range of persons commit crime against sex workers in Ireland, not only clients.

    66.7 percent of participants who had been a victim of crime whilst working as an escort in Ireland did not report to the police. The high level of stigma associated with being an escort being the primary barrier to engaging with police.

    Participants said that other escorts were the biggest source of help to them after experiencing crime. The research confirmed that currently there are no useful support services for escorts in Ireland, but escorts would welcome the establishment of a variety of sex worker support services.

    Fear of media exposure amongst escorts in Ireland is very high, even higher than fear of crime, with 74.6 percent of participants worried or very worried about being exposed as an escort in the newspapers or other media.

    Recommendations include further research, a review of laws and policies that put sex workers at risk, tackling media abuse of sex workers and the provision of police sex worker liaison services and general advice, legal advice, health services and existing services for sex workers.

    The full report outlines that a number of factors put escorts at risk of violence and abuse. The lack of support services and good relations with police mean offenders specifically target escorts in the belief that they are people in society without any help, who offenders can abuse with a very low risk of facing any consequences as a result. The media portrayal of escorts as people with no rights, no choices, and helpless victims who can't say no to anything or anybody, is also sending a very dangerous message to offenders.

    UglyMugs.ie is a scheme that aims to improve the safety of sex workers in Ireland and reduce crimes committed against them by bringing sex workers together to share information about potential dangers.

    Commenting on the research, UglyMugs.ie said, “There has never been any independent research into indoor sex work in Ireland. Instead of asking sex workers about their lives, we ask anti-prostitution campaigners. As our initial research here has shown, the Irish public is being grossly misled. Proper independent research must now be carried out now to establish the reality of indoor sex work in Ireland, so sensible legislation can be put in place.”

    UglyMugs.ie invited Irish indoor sex workers to take part in the research, which aimed to learn more about escorts in Ireland and particularly about their experiences of crime and abuse. This is the first ever survey of indoor sex workers in Ireland and 195 female, male and trans escorts took part. Although the survey cannot be considered representative of all persons selling sex in Ireland, 195 participants is a very significant proportion of the Irish sex worker population.
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  9. #1029
    ellie08 ellie08 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Carr View Post
    The state feminists do oppose prostitution. They are the ones who get the government funding. I agree with the article that in addition to Ruhama and Immigrant Council of Ireland, The National Women's Council of Ireland is one of the 3 principle energizers of the TORL campaign. Sex positive feminists in Ireland and elsewhere, in my opinion, tend to downplay the role of the NWCI in the TORL campaign. The central proposal is quintessentially feminist, criminalizing the purchaser of sex whilst simultaneously not criminalizing the seller of sex. This is derived from the state feminist theory of the patriarchal dominance that posits that all men are oppressing all women. The "Swedish Model" is seen as an antidote to this, rebalancing an alleged power imbalance between men and women by altering male behaviour by means of the threat of a criminal record and one's name and address printed in a newspaper or put online for the rest of eternity.

    The NWCI's campaign against "gender based violence" is related to the campaign to criminalize the purchase of sex. They are both motivated by the same gender feminism that portrays men as potential perpetrators and women as potential victims. This is despite the fact that it has now been established by hundreds of empirical studies over the past 30 years that domestic violence is a social problem and not a gender problem. In a domestic violence situation, men hit women as often as women hit men and at all levels of severity.

    REFERENCES EXAMINING ASSAULTS BY WOMEN ON THEIR SPOUSES OR MALE PARTNERS: AN ANNOTATED BIBLIOGRAPHY

    How feminists corrupt DV research

    http://www.menshumanrightsireland.org/index.php?n=49

    The scale of domestic violence has also been exaggerated by state feminist and international feminist commissioned bogus studies that return wildly inflated figures for domestic violence. 1 in 4 women a victim of domestic violence/sexual abuse/rape in her lifetime for example. Bogus studies are, of course, also used to justify the introduction of the Swedish model of criminalizing the purchase of sex such as greatly exaggerated claims that between 80% and 90% of all women in prostitution have been trafficked.

    Ideology trumps research for state feminists. Just like you have Melissa Farley were her bogus studies that greatly exaggerate alleged trafficking and coercion in adult sex work, you also have fellow feminists like Mary Koss who designed feminist questionnaires in the 1980s that were designed to exaggerate the scale of sexual abuse, rape and domestic violence in the home.
    State feminists? You, by you own admission watch a lot of porn. What the hell would you know about real women and their views. Just because there are no reports on child prostitution and rape does not mean it is not happening. People that watch porn are basically peeping toms. And peeping toms have no right to discuss feminists, or anyone else for that matter.
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  10. #1030
    Alan Alda Alan Alda is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by ellie08 View Post
    State feminists? You, by you own admission watch a lot of porn. What the hell would you know about real women and their views. Just because there are no reports on child prostitution and rape does not mean it is not happening. People that watch porn are basically peeping toms. And peeping toms have no right to discuss feminists, or anyone else for that matter.
    Prudish much ?
    99% of western men (and a lot of women too) have seen/watched/read porn at some point.
    Having a problem with this essentially means you have a problem with most people.
    Looking down on others to such an extent , with such an unrealistic and high and mighty attitude, exposes a lot of your arguments as mindless dogma.
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