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  1. #401
    dammit_im_mad dammit_im_mad is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dame_Enda View Post
    I agree that this material should be banned.

    What I don't understand is society taking a different view when it comes to depictions of other violent acts against children, such as the shooting dead of a child in the Love/Hate series.

    Now you can argue there is a major difference because the latter is only a depiction of a crime.

    However, under Irish law, even depictions of child porn e.g. cartoons, are technically illegal too. So the comparison stands.
    Well, society has a vested interest in presenting violence as acceptable. Then when they show state violence (war) on the news, we are used to such imagery so we don't really pay much attention to it (even though we should really be horrified). And if we see cops beat up occupy protesters etc, we don't care much either.

    Also, depicting crime and punishment in programs like love/hate regularly serves the interests of the state because it keeps citizens living in fear of nasty criminals (useful for manufacturing consent to bring in stronger police powers) and aware of the law always catching it's man (keeps them in line). Ever notice how many shows like "cops"there are on US tv?

    So violence on TV gets a pass in general.

    Sex is a very strong instinct in people. Control and channel that and you control a population. So you repress it. Then many people's sexual urges can be channelled through paying for products. When people are repressed in this manner by overly repressive social norms, they become preoccupied by sex and more susceptible to sexual cues in advertising / marketting. It's easy to arrest people for minor sexual transgressions or blackmail them over sexual imagery found while monitoring their communications etc. Guilt is a very strong motivator. All in all, a very powerful means of social control if you can repress and harness it.

    Society is replete with hypocrisy on these 2 matters. Killing a kid on TV using gruesome special effects is quite ok. viewing a fictitious made up manga drawing of a child is not. Films with violent content - ok. Films with sexual content - not ok.

    Apparently we are considered mature enough to join the army and kill people with real weapons at 17, but at the same age we can't view a sexy film or who knows what will happen. Ludicrous.

    Nobody is arresting people for viewing all the awful violent snuff videos from Syria on youtube, but try finding a porno on youtube.

    Such double standards. We have our morality inverted on these things. We need to become more upset about depictions of violence and less upset about consensual depictions of sex

    Very often sex videos are made with the adult consent of everybody in the video, who receive payment for their participation. If they don't mind, why should the state? However I'm sure that the people being murdered in the Syria snuff videos by western sponsored al nusra "rebels" certainly did not give their consent.

    I would agree with rib in that all efforts at stopping child exploitation should be geared towards the producers and those who fund their activities. Going after all the onanistic internet users will never stop this, just wastes precious resources. (Great excuse for governments to clamp down and control / monitor the internet though!)

    However, as in the drugs "war", often the producers have access to lots of cash and pay the cops to look the other way so all that is left for them is to go after the users while leaving the producers alone.
    Last edited by dammit_im_mad; 20th November 2013 at 07:41 AM.
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  2. #402
    Politkman Politkman is offline

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    I highly doubt the producers pay off police, it just seems easier to get convictions for people in possession; there is pretty much no defense... I believe it's a strict liability offense?

    Saw that there is another guy in Cork now, do these things come in waves or something?! Madness.
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  3. #403
    Paddyc Paddyc is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ribeye View Post
    exactly, you hit the nail on the head,

    here's how i view the subject of so called "child porn",

    Person in the video (or pic) abusing the child - Guilty of a crime - Aggravated Rape

    Producer, cameraman, distributor, guy who drives the flippin van - Guilty of a crime - Aiding and Abetting the above

    End users who pay for the video - Guilty of a crime - again, Aiding and Abetting

    End users who download the video for free - nope, no crime here, they have absolutely no connection to the victim.

    Now, this is a pretty unpopular thing to say, so why do i make this point, when so many people already dislike me around here

    well, the last group i mentioned are by far the most numerous, and huge amounts of police resources are used up trying to arrest them, and yet, even if you arrested and jailed every single one of them (which is impossible anyway), it would not help protect even one child from abuse, not a single one.

    If, and i do say "if", the real goal is to protect children, you focus 100% of your resources going after groups 1,2 and 3, but is child protection really the goal, I don't flippin think so

    and the animation comment was a seperate thing about how can there be a crime if there is no victim, as PragApproach correctly spotted,
    If you download images of the rape and sexual abuse of children from a website that derives its income from advertising, then you are contributing financially to the rape and sexual abuse of children. By downloading images of the rape and sexual abuse of children, even for free, you are normalising the rape and sexual abuse of children.

    For this, you deserve to be named and shamed at the very least. Personally, I'd prefer to see serious jail time involved.
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  4. #404
    cathalbrugha cathalbrugha is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurial View Post
    I don't see how viewing a picture of a child amounts to abusing that child..
    A comment that was left on Indymedia about the moderator Pat Corcoran sums it up perfectly for me.

    You are cherry picking your answers and ignoring what the mothers of abused children said - that it graduated over time to the full blown offence.

    One distraught woman spelt out in graphic detail the pictures the bastard she was married to showed to her daughter as he was grooming her. This started, with him getting her to cut out page three girls and to keep it "as their secret". According to you the pictures Corcoran confessed to having were not even page three material. It is just as well he was caught when he was.

    You say you're not defending Corcoran but keep on defending him. I sincerely hope you are right and he never goes on to harm a child in a physical manner. Maybe the suspended sentence and the destruction of his reputation will deter him but remember what I said - there is no such thing as an ex pedophile. You can never know he won't - and I hope you can sleep at night if he does.


    Hopefully his wee psychiatric illness didn't develop from point A to point B and some little kid isn't physically and emotionally scarred for life by him.
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  5. #405
    Dame_Enda Dame_Enda is offline
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    Part of the problem is that much of the world is on a different planet from us in terms of the age of consent, meaning this material may not even be illegal in the countries of origin. For example most of Latin America the age of consent is 14. It was only recently increased from 14 to 16 in Canada (where some of the arrests took place).
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  6. #406
    cathalbrugha cathalbrugha is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ribeye View Post
    i'm no tech whizz kid, but even i know how laughably easy it would be to plant images onto someones computer of smartphone, minimum sentencing is therefore very dangerous in this type of case,
    Just in case you're ever watching two or three adults having sex and you get stung by the Freewheelers and someone tries to blackmail you..

    Gaistiú! Entrapment in Ireland

    Further Reading -

    Undercover Investigations & Human Rights, Paul Anthony McDermott BL, 2008

    Fashioning an Irish entrapment doctrine based on international experience, Keith Spencer BL and Órla Veale-Martin, 2005


    Introduction

    ''The aim of this article is to expose the underdeveloped state of Irish law in the context of entrapment and to demonstrate how the State’s commitments under the European Convention of Human Rights[And the European Convention on Human Rights Act 2003 .]mandate that this lacuna be reviewed, andthat greater clarity be introduced to this area of criminal law. Entrapment is a legal term of art, which isused to describe circumstances where a person has been induced to commit an offence, usually by a lawenforcement agent or some other agent of the State, which he or she would not have committed but forthe inducement. Such inducements may impact profoundly on the privacy rights of the accused, andevidence obtained as a result of this process can, if proffered at trial, compromise the integrity of the judicial system by impairing one’s right to a trial attended by fair procedures and conducted in due course of law.''

    “On the one hand it has been recognized as deeply offensive to ordinary notions of fairness if a defendant were to be convicted and punished for committing a crime which he only committed becausehe had been incited, instigated, persuaded, pressurized or wheedled into committing it by a lawenforcement officer. On the other hand, it has been recognized that law enforcement agencies have ageneral duty to the public to enforce the law and it has been regarded as unobjectionable if a lawenforcement officer gives a defendant an opportunity to break the law, of which the defendant freelytakes advantage in circumstances where it appears that the defendant would have behaved in the same way if the opportunity had been offered by anyone else.”
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  7. #407
    cathalbrugha cathalbrugha is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dame_Enda View Post
    Part of the problem is that much of the world is on a different planet from us in terms of the age of consent, meaning this material may not even be illegal in the countries of origin. For example most of Latin America the age of consent is 14. It was only recently increased from 14 to 16 in Canada (where some of the arrests took place).
    He'd still be guilty as these kids are believed to have been aged between 7/8-14. It's an interesting loop hole nonetheless..
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  8. #408
    Ribeye Ribeye is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paddyc View Post
    If you download images of the rape and sexual abuse of children from a website that derives its income from advertising, then you are contributing financially to the rape and sexual abuse of children. By downloading images of the rape and sexual abuse of children, even for free, you are normalising the rape and sexual abuse of children.

    For this, you deserve to be named and shamed at the very least. Personally, I'd prefer to see serious jail time involved.
    even if the police resources used up doing this are being taken away from actually protecting children?

    I don't care about naming and shaming people, what good is that,

    except for maybe making the rest of us feel that we're the good guys,

    "look over there, he's the bad guy"

    - Tony Montana

    Devote all available resources to catching and jailing the people who actually abuse the kids,

    I really don't understand why people are so against this concept,
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  9. #409
    serioussam909 serioussam909 is offline

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    Nowadays you can make incredibly realistic images using software like 3ds max or blender - indistinguishable from real photos - that was not possible 20 years ago.

    What if someone makes images like that without ever touching any child?
    Should he go to jail?

    Also it is possible to mod games like the sims to simulate child abuse.
    Should these modders go to jail too?
    Last edited by serioussam909; 22nd November 2013 at 07:08 PM.
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  10. #410
    First Amendment First Amendment is offline

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    reason.com/archives/2011/06/14/perverted-justice


    This is a good article explaining the witch-hunt behind the child porno laws and how the over zealous laws actually destroy lives. Yes the true monsters need to be brought to justice, but there is all kinds of people wrongly caught in the crossfire. It is 4 pages long but exposes the harsh injustice of the system, and how good intentions and strong emotions can make for terrible legislation.
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