Mandatory sentences + limited prison spaces = problem?

[feargach]

I can see the argument for mandatory sentences like the USA have.

However, the USA have taken the next logical step from removing a judge's discretion: they have built literally millions of new prison spaces to house the mushrooming army of convicts caused by the new laws.

Imposing mandatory sentencing while keeping prison size static is a bit like buying 500 head of cattle when you only have a quarter acre to put them on.

The mandatory sentences involved places an incredible burden on the DPP. By removing the discretion to impose sentence from the judges, it seems we've simply shifted the discretion to the Director.

It stands to reason that he will be under pressure not to prosecute certain criminals due to lack of prison space.

If that happened, we potentially have the grotesque situation of a criminal walking free: the DPP decide not to prosecute because of the unacceptable burden the mandatory 10 year sentence would place on Seirbhís Priosúin.

Whereas under the old judicial-discretion system, the judge might have struck a balance between the competing interests of the prisons and justice, and ensured the criminal did serve at least some time incarcerated.

Also, if a judge makes a mistake, his sentence can be reviewed. However, the DPP is, as far as I'm aware, immune from scrutiny.

[AXL ROSE]

I don't like the idea of mandatory sentences. They seem repugnant to the separations of powers.

[Odyessus]

I don't like the idea of mandatory sentences. They seem repugnant to the separations of powers.

They are not. The Legislature makes the law, the Judiciary administers it.
There is a mandatory life sentence for murder. I have never heard anyone argue that the Legislature is not entitled to make such a law, or that a Judge should be given the power to decide what sentence (if any) to impose on someone convicted of murder.

[feargach]

It's a pity the lawnorder types won't pitch in here because it's a massive disparity.

In North East Dublin alone we have more serious crimes being committed than there are prison spaces to semi-adequately punish the perpetrators. Not to mind the rest of the nation.

The lawnorder types loooooove to castigate judges for being "out of touch" re sentencing of wrongdoers. But judges are perfectly well aware, unlike some, that prisons are finite spaces.

[Odyessus]

It's a pity the lawnorder types won't pitch in here because it's a massive disparity.

In North East Dublin alone we have more serious crimes being committed than there are prison spaces to semi-adequately punish the perpetrators. Not to mind the rest of the nation.

The lawnorder types loooooove to castigate judges for being "out of touch" re sentencing of wrongdoers. But judges are perfectly well aware, unlike some, that prisons are finite spaces.

Nonsense. A judge, a member of the Judiciary, who sentences someone to a term of imprisonment does not have to make sure there are prison places. This is the responsibility of the Executive. A judge can insist that the sentence be served, even if it means building more prisons.

[feargach]

Fine and dandy, but in the real world, stuffing unlimited numbers of unstable people into already overcrowded spaces leads to inevitable blood baths, and judges like to sleep at night just as much as you and I.

Judges can wish like mad that the executive would make new prisons appear overnight, that getting things other than badly insulated houses and motorways built is something the Irish were good at, just as much as you and I do, but that won't happen today or tomorrow and the wishing will come to naught.

The fact that our prisons are totally unlike Carandiru in Brazil, is due to the fact that our official bodies have been using discretion and common sense, whether or not they are entitled in law to do so.

Were they to suddenly stop, and apply the letter of the law, I cannot see any outcome but that Dublin's prisons would be more like those of Lagos, minus the sunshine.

[Odyessus]

Fine and dandy, but in the real world, stuffing unlimited numbers of unstable people into already overcrowded spaces leads to inevitable blood baths, and judges like to sleep at night just as much as you and I.

Judges can wish like mad that the executive would make new prisons appear overnight, that getting things other than badly insulated houses and motorways built is something the Irish were good at, just as much as you and I do, but that won't happen today or tomorrow and the wishing will come to naught.

The fact that our prisons are totally unlike Carandiru in Brazil, is due to the fact that our official bodies have been using discretion and common sense, whether or not they are entitled in law to do so.

Were they to suddenly stop, and apply the letter of the law, I cannot see any outcome but that Dublin's prisons would be more like those of Lagos, minus the sunshine.

Judges, if they wished, could force the government to provide more prison places. They do not so wish.

[feargach]

Judges, if they wished, could force the government to provide more prison places. They do not so wish.

Some might observe that it is a good thing if the unelected state functionaries don't go around forcing the elected ones to do their bidding.

Besides, for that to happen, it would take all the judges to decide, en masse, that this forcing of the state's hands is to be their policy. And for judges to conspire in such a way would be utterly unconstitutional.

It is we, the citizens, who should properly be the ones to decide these things.

Neither the elected reps nor the judiciary can fairly be blamed for choosing not to make Ireland the country with the highest prison population without the informed decision of the voters. And any significant increase in prisoner number would very much put us there.

[Odyessus]

Judges, if they wished, could force the government to provide more prison places. They do not so wish.

Some might observe that it is a good thing if the unelected state functionaries don't go around forcing the elected ones to do their bidding.

Besides, for that to happen, it would take all the judges to decide, en masse, that this forcing of the state's hands is to be their policy. And for judges to conspire in such a way would be utterly unconstitutional.

It is we, the citizens, who should properly be the ones to decide these things.

Neither the elected reps nor the judiciary can fairly be blamed for choosing not to make Ireland the country with the highest prison population without the informed decision of the voters. And any significant increase in prisoner number would very much put us there.

Judges could simply apply the laws which were enacted by the democratically elected legislature to jail people convicted of breaking these laws. There is nothing unconstitutional about this. If a judge sentences someone to prison, it is up to the government to supply the prison places. Judges are too lenient to offenders. That is my opinion, which is shared by the majority of my fellow citizens.

[saratoga]

It's a pity the lawnorder types won't pitch in here because it's a massive disparity.

In North East Dublin alone we have more serious crimes being committed than there are prison spaces to semi-adequately punish the perpetrators. Not to mind the rest of the nation.

The lawnorder types loooooove to castigate judges for being "out of touch" re sentencing of wrongdoers. But judges are perfectly well aware, unlike some, that prisons are finite spaces.

You only have a point as long as these 'lawnorder' types are against building more prison places. So, not very long.