Garda Shot in North Inner City - Breaking News

[Garda]

Garda, ERU, branch, SDU are not one group. And as you say, a quarter of the guards are armed, thats almost 3000 members. Every detective in Ireland is armed as far as I know. Police shootings, lets see...Athy, Abbylara and the unarmed raider in Lusk, the soldier shot by guards during the Tidey rescue. Admittedly most garda shootings are the result of incompetence and poor training and probably poor and unsuitable equipment like armed guards running around with uzi's. You ask whether Im talking about guards shooting other guards as if this is absurd, in fact Athy and Leitrim are but two examples. The guards haven't shot innocent shoppers on Grafton st (yet) but they have managed to shoot innocent shoppers in Athy. It seems that every time the ERU is 'mobilized' there is some sort of catastrophe.

As for Irish cops killing civilians, there is a very proud history. The report into Abbylara found "that John Carthy "was probably subjected to physical abuse while under interrogation" while in custody on a separate occasion in September 1998, and that investigations into this matter were inadequate." You'll remember of course the case of John Morris, shot in the back and in the back of the head in 1997 by the ERU. He was an INLA man who had been under surveillance. Witnesses claimed he offered no resistance. Such was the coroners collaboration with the guards in covering up the circumstances of this death that his report was overturned.

Then Ronan Mclochlain, dissident republican Killed by the ERU in '98. Guards claimed he died in a 'shootout', a claim they later had to withdraw. Again he was under surveillance at the time of his death. This stuff is like the early 80's in the north except there it caused an uproar.

If you want to get beyond gunplay and civilian deaths then there is plenty of material to interest you. I dunno if they talk about Shercock in Templemore but they should. Wheelock Ive mentioned, but not the other 3 deaths in Store St since 2001. Apparently Store St. has specially designed suicide prevention cells. John Moloney, young Rossiter in Kilkenny, Thomas Mongon in Cork. Gimme a list that long of Guards falling in the line of duty in the last ten years and I will eat my shoe.

Garda internal affairs, you must be joking. Name the last guard convicted of assault thanks to IA cooperation with the prosecution. Then tell me how much the state has paid out to those assaulted on the court house steps. You dont need to go to indymedia or youtube to find out. Primetime did a reasonably good show about it a couple of years ago. But i suppose they just hate the guards. That IA finds that more than 90% of complaints are 'pure lies'...ah yes, quotas.

Discipline is part of this. There is a famous story of 2 sisters set upon on grafton by plain clothes members who were reversing at speed down the street around midnight. Their car struck a member of their group whereupon some others banged on the car to get the attention of the driver who they assumed was drunk. the two women were dragged to Store Street, assaulted en route, thrown from the van and through the station door where they were again set upon in full view of the desk sergeant. Though the state settled effectively admitting the events had occurred as described not one guard came forward to denounce the attackers. This is but one example covered extensively in the media at the time. These were nice middle class types with family friends who were lawyers, in the class ridden Irish legal system they were credible. Others who speak with a different accent are I assume that 90% you refer to, criminals by virtue of their complaint. You know all about the heavy gang, all of whom were promoted, some showing up in infamy during Kerry babies and even Abbylara. The Morris tribunal exposed even more about the organization wide conspiracy to extract confessions under duress and the routine abuse of suspects.

And yes, indymedia does a decent job of trying to highlight some of this stuff which for decades has been tolerated and accepted by the political masters of the force. Indeed, the fact that the organization has not had a root and branch reformation since the 70s is a central problem. It was led in those years over a cliff by political masters terrified of the consequences of republican subversion. They allowed the gloves to come off and disciple and the rule of law was the first casualty. That situation has never been adequately redressed. You might have to sign a docket to take a piss but every dept throughout the country is aware of who the heavies are yet noone says anything about it.

Oh ho I laughed when I look at these kind of posts. I really do.

Well well, ERU is a section of SDU. Theres no such thing as 'The branch' in An Garda Siochana. So yes, its the same group.

All detectives are not armed, otherwise they wouldnt have to shout "Armed Gardai" Would they? I shouldnt really bother seeing as these two alone show you havent a notion about the subject but you do amuse me so.

John Carthy? Innocent law abiding man going about his business was he? He pointed AND SHOT at Gardai. Thats a qualified fact. The reasoning behind it may be tragic but the bullets just as lethal. Sorry, maybe we should just stand up and be shot dead?

Athy? This would be innocent bank robbers again would it?

Lusk??? Im in shock your even attempting to paint this one as Gardai shooting a poor unfortunate person. He was robbing a post office and attacked the Garda with a hammer. This is fact. He was warned repeatedly. This is fact. He still attacked the Garda. This is fact.

Letirim? Actually I think you will find that it was a trainee Garda and a soldier shot by the IRA then. A group I suspect you are very fond of.

John Carthy might have been abused, I cannot state for a fact he wasnt, I wasnt there and I didnt interview him but Im pretty sure you cant be shor dead twice. So that doesnt prove your point.

John Morris, ah yes. Wasnt he the fine chap who went out with a few other terrorist friends for a spot of armed robbery and was shot in the process?
But sure, its well known that everyone collaberates to distort the truth behind such murdering of fine upstanding 'volunteers'.

Shercock? Yes I know that case, he wasnt a 'poor man' or 'desperate' as you have previously called him but yes, what happened was wrong. However lets remember 2 things, it was Garda evidence that convicted the guilty party and 2, he was sentenced.

Ronan Mclochlain??? Are you serious? This is the same man that attempted an armed robbery using a grenade launcher? Part of the same gang that attempted to hijack a schoolbus full of kids? Oh yes, another brave 'volunteer' going about his innocent business.

I never said IA, I said the complaints board sated 90%.

But whats the point in continuing? Your talking through a different hole. By the way, Store Street doesnt cover Grafton Street. And as yet theres no evidence to support your other claims (unless you count blood that wasnt even his). Everyones entitled to an opinion as they say.

[stewiegriffin]

has there been a verdict on lusk? anyhoo if the gardai had advanced knowledge , how did it go as far as it did?

[rkeane]

Garda, don't even bother with the likes of stateside....he's clearly not the full shilling.

[stateside]

Garda, obviously the guards and people like rkeane reckon that Carthy et al deserved it. Fortunately we live in a democracy where those kinds of attitudes among members of the security services and the political fringe are not supposed to count for anything. I talked about incompetence and Garda gunplay. Leitrim, I think you'll find that the soldier was shot by a guard and the fact that a trainee garda is out beating the bushes for seasoned IRA men tells me lots about garda management incompetence, weren't they busy bugging journalists phones at the time?

the abuse Carthy had received at the hands of the guards was seen by the inquiry as relevant because it explained why he mistrusted and feared the cops. this was compounded by the incompetence and stupidity of the ERU in refusing to allow anyone known to him to communicate with him. Again, a decent well organised force could have resolved the matter peacefully as a matter of course. And in Athy there was a lest one uninvolved civilian shot by the ERU.

The republicans are not civilians, thats all youre correct about. The guards do not have the right to prosecute a shoot to kill policy, yet we have a pattern of incidents where Guards have mounted surveillance operations against criminals and republicans before offenses were committed which ended in the killing of the suspects. Lusk is the most notorious where even the ombudsman is asking questions about the shooting of the second unarmed raider. As i pointed out when this kind of tactic was pursued by the British in the early 80s there was general condemnation of it by the reasonable middle, pd's and guards perhaps excepted. Yet when this kind of thing seems to be happening in the south noone is bothered.

I never said anything about the character of the guy who was killed by guards in Shercock, I didn't refer to him as 'desperate' or a 'poor man'. you seem to indicate that one should not be too sympathetic to this guy, you know wink, wink, he deserved it. And i dont know what youre on about with the garda evidence, the guard in question walked as there was no evidence! All I know is Peter Mathews went into a garda station in the full of his health and came out in a coffin.

Why is the state paying out compo to alleged victims of garda abuse when it cant possibly have happened? Couldnt they have just said that Store St is attached to Fitzgibbon st therefore these young women and their friends (and primetime) are LYING!

With regard to Morris, we have a criminal justice system to deal with those involved in criminality and subversion (dont even need to go before a jury). The guards setting up operations which routinely lead to the death of suspects is either wilfull or incompetent. And this idea that those who criticise the state and its agents when it comes to dealing with subversion are fellow travelers just indicates that you have something to be afraid of. It allows you to dismiss those attitudes that disturb your world view as politically suspect which is fine for 'kill em all' armchair superheros like rkeane but is scary in people who have real power invested in them like yourself. Its all very well to buy into the tabloid idea that escalation of violence will lead to a decrease in violent crime (ah the utopians!) but for those charged with upholding the constitution and the law its a very slippery slope.

You tackle my list selectively, choosing those who 'deserved it'. You don't take on my main point which is that the guards kill plenty of people in Ireland without consequence. Sure wasn't young Rossiter in trouble with his maths teacher and John Moloney was driving without insurance!

[essexboy]

"The Garda Commissioner has said that, at this stage of the inquiry into the death of a garda at Abbeyleix, it appears that the only shots fired were by a Garda unit. "
Triggerhappy or what? How many Gardai were disciplined/prosecuted after this killing?