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  1. #21
    Partizan Partizan is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Telemachus View Post
    I remember watching the excellent program "the death of yugoslavia' excellent viewing. Had you seen that yourself? it had interviews with a lot of the local actors.

    These libs today just think there is black in white, you are dealing with the breakup of a forced multi ethnic country comprised of ethnic peoples with varying degrees of power.

    It would have been better if things went on the lines of the Greek-Turkey ethnic exchange which was sort of civil. But that certainly wasnt going to happen when you had tossers like US General Wesley Clarke saying monocultural countries had no place in the world and the bad guys=serbs narrative which was promoted.

    Feel the US could have pushed for that, but they couldnt due to the prevailing liberal orthodoxy.

    Then again..?
    There is another film called the Weight of Chains made by Serbian film director Boris Kaligursky.



    It is slightly biased as it comes from the Serbian perspective but nonetheless picks up some very important points that the CNN/BBC produced Death of Yugoslavia left out.
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  2. #22
    IvoShandor IvoShandor is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honecker View Post
    Complete joke. The hypocrisy of the "international community" ie The US and Western Europe shouldn't surprise anyone. They have twisted the public perception of the conflict in the balkans into poor little catholic conservative Croatia standing up to brutal Serbia. The Germans have been financing Croatian terrorism since WW2 and conti nue to do so today.
    Idiot!
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  3. #23
    FireWolf FireWolf is offline

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    Two judges out of five, members of the Appeals Chamber were against this final verdict. One of them, Judge Fausto Pocar summarized his oppinion about the final verdict in one sentence:

    E. Conclusion
    39. In light of the above, I fundamentally dissent from the entire Appeal Judgement, which
    contradicts any sense of justice
    .
    Source: official document published on ICTY website. (I'm not allowed to post links)
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  4. #24
    Dr Pat Dr Pat is offline

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    The dissenting judgments make for compelling reading and show up the majority decision as fundamentally flawed, not that it matters at this stage. It is interesting that a huge crowd of Croatians were out on the streets of Zagreb to welcome home their heroes. Croatia gets into EU with a clean bill of health but a very ugly side largely unpunished. The cynics will say that history is being rewritten.
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  5. #25
    Partizan Partizan is offline
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    Hague Verdict Shows it is Good to be Criminal :: Balkan Insight

    A couple of interesting titbits from the article.
    Gotovina’s counsel offered a Rodney King defence to the charge that civilians were encouraged to flee because of indiscriminate shelling of the towns where they lived. Shell by shell, they argued it could not be demonstrated which particular attack by explosives caused which civilian to flee. The appeals chamber accepted the argument, rejecting the prosecution’s contention that people were compelled to leave not by one or another particular shell, but by the overall environment of attack that comprised a central element of military strategy (para. 19).
    here

    The appeals chamber made a strange decision on the status of the joint criminal enterprise to forcibly expel the civilian population: they decided that their adoption of the Rodney King standard on shelling makes irrelevant the documentary evidence from the Brioni transcripts and the public statements of Franjo Tudjman that indicate that expulsion of the civilian population was a goal of the military operation. Instead they decided (paras. 81-82) that an examination of the Brioni transcripts does not indicate any specific order to make any specific artillery attack. So they decided that the “circumstantial evidence” (para. 91) does not demonstrate the existence of a joint criminal enterprise, while disregarding the direct evidence.
    and here

    Here it gets weird. Referring to the implementation of plans to expel civilians, the appeals chamber reaches the conclusion that “discussion of pretexts for artillery attacks, of potential civilian departures, and of provision of exit corridors could be reasonably interpreted as referring to lawful combat operations and public relations efforts” (para. 93). Similarly they find that “the fact that Croatia adopted discriminatory measures after the departures of Serb civilians from the Krajina does not demonstrate that these departures were forced” (para. 95). Score one for poststructuralist literary theory.
    According to the writer, a dangerous precedent has been set here in that it invalidates the distinction between military and civilian targets as set down by the Hague and Geneva Conventions. The West in its desire to exonerate both generals and to enact what is essentially a political decision, has had disastrous consequences on both military and civilians in war zones.
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  6. #26
    Picasso Republic Picasso Republic is offline
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    Large swathes of Bosnia and Croatia previously had a large Serbian majority and in some areas almost a total Serb population, many of these territories through history have swung between Ottoman, Hapsburg and Kingdom of Serbian control however the people always saw themselves as Serbian.

    The Croats were quite entitled to push for independence and quite entitled to 'demand' that included the historic borders ( we're getting close to a NI discussion here), however what all negotiators failed to accept is the hotch pitch of populations within South Central Europe and the Balkans and to recognise that 'historic administrative borders' do not represent the demographics on the ground. The Croats were as entitled to put forward their case as the Serb population of the Knin region were (or those in Banja Luka etc) - what was or is required is a wholly independent UN commission with access to ground forces to decide and make rulings on 'fair borders' etc - independence or perceived independence of such a commission would be the problem.

    I believe the Serbs were more guilty of atrocities during the Balkan conflict, their use of paramilitary irregulars with outrageous behaviour was criminal, their deliberate targeting of civilians by snipers in Sarajevo and the treatment of opposition civilians now living behind enemy lines was disgraceful etc and the participants and those who ordered their actions deserve to be punished (on all sides).

    However war is a dirty business and the mobilisation of local ethnic forces to fight a similar opponent in a civil war situation cannot be considered criminal in itself. The fact that a population (Serb, Croat or Bosniak) decides to 'up sticks' as opposing forces draw nearer cannot in itself be considered ethnic cleansing. How one treats a 'captured population' is how one should be judged.

    In hindsight its hard to see how a solution could have come without 'voluntary and forced' ethnic cleansing. Many would say that an extension of Serbia should have been created between Osijek through Banja Luka to Knin, however what then to do with the sizable Bihac territory in Northern Bosnia which is almost 100% Bosniak.

    Brutal as it was to see tens of thousands of people abandon Knin after hundreds of years of Serb settlement, what all of the generals (on all sides) managed to model between them (not necessarily deliberately) is a region with governments and homogenous demographics which for almost the first time in Balkan history has a chance of succeeding.
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  7. #27
    Fitch F Rich Fitch F Rich is offline

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    Free at last!
    Thank you, God.

    VIDEO: youtube.com/watch?v=XiaiuxyfXds&feature=player_embedded

    Not in a mood for discussion with Serbian propagandists on this forum. Just here to post this video and give you insight of yesterday's events in Croatia.
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  8. #28
    Thac0man Thac0man is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mackers View Post
    This is a disgraceful verdict. The Croats were evey bit as guilty as the Serbs for what happned.
    So the Croats are co-responsible for what happened in Bosnia, Slovenia and Kosovo too? The body count accumulated in the abortive quest for a 'Greater Serbia' does not lie. Ethnic imperialism was defeated, whether you like it or not.
    Last edited by Thac0man; 17th November 2012 at 10:32 PM.
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  9. #29
    Thac0man Thac0man is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mackers View Post
    I think people would do well to remember where the Coats hitched their wagon to in WW2.
    ...... so Croatia having holding several elections and installing different democratic governments since its referendum to declare independence is to be ignored? Because Croatia, like Serbia in the same period, was government by an axis puppet government? The fact the Croatian PM acknowledged that mistakes had been made in the war, as he responded to the appeals verdict, shows a degree of maturity and responsibility that the Belgrade government would do well to try and emulate.
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  10. #30
    Dr Pat Dr Pat is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fitch F Rich View Post
    Free at last!
    Thank you, God.

    VIDEO: youtube.com/watch?v=XiaiuxyfXds&feature=player_embedded

    Not in a mood for discussion with Serbian propagandists on this forum. Just here to post this video and give you insight of yesterday's events in Croatia.
    And you, of course, are not a Croatian propagandist.
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