Constitutional Property Rights - time for a change

[patslatt]

If the State is purchasing land it should have to pay market rates. When making a compulsory purchase, it's going to get the land either way so it strikes me that owners should be fairly recompensed.

The Kenny Report, payed for by the taxpayer, found that a 25% mark up on agricultural prices was a fair compensation for development land. If this report had been adopted we would not have the ridiculous property bubble now.

Low interest rates largely fuelled the property bubble in Ireland,Spain and other countries.

Land price increases may or may not have contributed modestly to the bubble. Land accounts for maybe 20 to 70% of house prices,urban land like Dublin's being at the high end of costs.When landowners get market value for development land, they have a terriffic incentive to see it developed and will encourage developers to take an interest in developing it or at least they will be amenable to selling out. With the prospect for development projects,developers will work energetically with councils and planning authorities in order to get planning permissions. This adds to the supply of development land and helps increase the supply of houses.

When land is confiscated at far less than market value, landowners can become very angry at county council politicians and move mountains to get them voted out of office. The result is that the whole process of land development is slowed down. This depresses the supply of houses.

The Kenny report reflects the thinking of jealous leftists. If you can confiscate at an artificial price the land of a small farmer who is probably earning a low income, why stop there? Why not confiscate the land under Dublin houses which accounts for maybe 70% of the selling price of a house and reinvest the proceeds in affordable housing? Both types of land have increased in value thanks to the economic boom and low interest rates.

Would Kenny be happy to have his house confiscated? Leftists are very generous with other peoples' property,not their own.

[TradCat]

As socialist is someone who has nothing and wants to share it with everybody.

[factual]

As socialist is someone who has nothing and wants to share it with everybody.

[Cael]

If the State is purchasing land it should have to pay market rates. When making a compulsory purchase, it's going to get the land either way so it strikes me that owners should be fairly recompensed.

The Kenny Report, payed for by the taxpayer, found that a 25% mark up on agricultural prices was a fair compensation for development land. If this report had been adopted we would not have the ridiculous property bubble now.

Low interest rates largely fuelled the property bubble in Ireland,Spain and other countries.

Land price increases may or may not have contributed modestly to the bubble. Land accounts for maybe 20 to 70% of house prices,urban land like Dublin's being at the high end of costs.When landowners get market value for development land, they have a terriffic incentive to see it developed and will encourage developers to take an interest in developing it or at least they will be amenable to selling out. With the prospect for development projects,developers will work energetically with councils and planning authorities in order to get planning permissions. This adds to the supply of development land and helps increase the supply of houses.

When land is confiscated at far less than market value, landowners can become very angry at county council politicians and move mountains to get them voted out of office. The result is that the whole process of land development is slowed down. This depresses the supply of houses.

The Kenny report reflects the thinking of jealous leftists. If you can confiscate at an artificial price the land of a small farmer who is probably earning a low income, why stop there? Why not confiscate the land under Dublin houses which accounts for maybe 70% of the selling price of a house and reinvest the proceeds in affordable housing? Both types of land have increased in value thanks to the economic boom and low interest rates.

Would Kenny be happy to have his house confiscated? Leftists are very generous with other peoples' property,not their own.

I very much doubt if any of the authors of the Kenny Report were leftists of any sort. They were merely making a judgement based on common sense. Nobody in their right mind would wish the mindless property riot that happened over the last few years to happen. Indeed, the instability which is likely to occur if houses crash back to their real value would be the very thing a believer in the capitalist status quo would wish to avoid. The Bacon Reports also sought ways to insure that land prices would not become inflated to the current insanity. Bertie asked the 26 county AG to determine if a constitutional amendment would be needed to implement Kenny, the AG advised that no amendment would be needed and that Kenny could be implemented through legislation. Ireland is 4% urbanised, there is no land shortage. The prices now obtained for land have nothing to do with the free market and everything to do with poor policy in land rezoning and providing serviced sites. The bubble has been caused by FF ineptitude and the gombeens cashing in on that ineptitude. No doubt large cash donations from the developers and landowners helped FF to stay conveniently inept. The artificial price is not agricultural value plus 25% but the 500,000 an acre that landowners are getting near the towns of Ireland. That such insane prices should be paid and then passed on to the home buyer, at a substantial markup, in a country 4% urbanised is the very antipathy of the free market.

[patslatt]

If the State is purchasing land it should have to pay market rates. When making a compulsory purchase, it's going to get the land either way so it strikes me that owners should be fairly recompensed.

The Kenny Report, payed for by the taxpayer, found that a 25% mark up on agricultural prices was a fair compensation for development land. If this report had been adopted we would not have the ridiculous property bubble now.

Low interest rates largely fuelled the property bubble in Ireland,Spain and other countries.

Land price increases may or may not have contributed modestly to the bubble. Land accounts for maybe 20 to 70% of house prices,urban land like Dublin's being at the high end of costs.When landowners get market value for development land, they have a terriffic incentive to see it developed and will encourage developers to take an interest in developing it or at least they will be amenable to selling out. With the prospect for development projects,developers will work energetically with councils and planning authorities in order to get planning permissions. This adds to the supply of development land and helps increase the supply of houses.

When land is confiscated at far less than market value, landowners can become very angry at county council politicians and move mountains to get them voted out of office. The result is that the whole process of land development is slowed down. This depresses the supply of houses.

The Kenny report reflects the thinking of jealous leftists. If you can confiscate at an artificial price the land of a small farmer who is probably earning a low income, why stop there? Why not confiscate the land under Dublin houses which accounts for maybe 70% of the selling price of a house and reinvest the proceeds in affordable housing? Both types of land have increased in value thanks to the economic boom and low interest rates.

Would Kenny be happy to have his house confiscated? Leftists are very generous with other peoples' property,not their own.

I very much doubt if any of the authors of the Kenny Report were leftists of any sort. They were merely making a judgement based on common sense. Nobody in their right mind would wish the mindless property riot that happened over the last few years to happen. Indeed, the instability which is likely to occur if houses crash back to their real value would be the very thing a believer in the capitalist status quo would wish to avoid. The Bacon Reports also sought ways to insure that land prices would not become inflated to the current insanity. Bertie asked the 26 county AG to determine if a constitutional amendment would be needed to implement Kenny, the AG advised that no amendment would be needed and that Kenny could be implemented through legislation. Ireland is 4% urbanised, there is no land shortage. The prices now obtained for land have nothing to do with the free market and everything to do with poor policy in land rezoning and providing serviced sites. The bubble has been caused by FF ineptitude and the gombeens cashing in on that ineptitude. No doubt large cash donations from the developers and landowners helped FF to stay conveniently inept. The artificial price is not agricultural value plus 25% but the 500,000 an acre that landowners are getting near the towns of Ireland. That such insane prices should be paid and then passed on to the home buyer, at a substantial markup, in a country 4% urbanised is the very antipathy of the free market.

It isn't common sense to confiscate property. Our economy,which depends heavily on foreign direct investment,is built on a foundation of secure property rights. The property development sector is the major driver of the economy today.

There is little ineptitude in zoning and providing of serviced sites. Just look
at the number of houses being built-about five times the rate of the UK relative to population size.

It's amazing that prices have risen so long in the face of rising housing output,especially outside of Dublin city limits. The reason is the mad rush to buy, a bubble fuelled by extremely low interest rates historically. As I said to a friend who invested in about a dozen flats three years ago, Ireland is an interest rate play and as long as the economies of France,Germany and Italy remain weak, interest rates will stay low. Germany is now recovering and France will recover if as expected Sarkozy can stand up to militant unions in the state sector and push through economic reforms. This means rising or high interest rates for the next few years and will burst the Irish property bubble.

[Odyessus]

Property is crime.

You criminal! Bet you own that computer you're using. I'm calling the cops.

[CReidy]

Saint Thomas Aquinas was a smart guy and all but our extremely strong property rights are now holding back infrastructure development for telecommunication, roads, railways, waste disposal and housing.

In the context of technological advances, globalised competition and environmental disintegration, is it time we thought about loosening our grip on the land for the greater good?

So what are you proposing, something akin to the recent disgraceful decision of the U.S. Supreme Court in Kelo v City of New London whereby a private firm was able to acquire property that was cleverly re designated by the city council to allow it's acquisition for commercial enterprise or take a Franco stance on the issue (still present in modern Spanish law) that effectively allows the local authority to come along tomorrow morning and just demolish my home in some vague assurance that it's for the public good?

The current law is perfectly adequate, due process and a fair price given for my land, that's what every citizen should expect.

[ivnryn]

Frankly, property reform should focus on the planning system. The reason there were so many brown envelopes is due to the massive change in land value due to re-zoning.

An option would be to tax the increase in value due to a site being re-zoned, perhaps at the VAT rate. That money could the go to the local authority for providing services etc, so that the zoned land can actually support whatever was built on the land. This links the zoning of land into the providing of services.

[evercloserunion]

Sorry if this was answered in one of the myriad posts I didn't read, but exactly what changes would you suggest?

I thought I would stir it up a bit. I wanted ot know what other more knowledgable people might think.

I am worried that our property rights will slow the roll out of next generation networks for communications. I am also worried they could slow the roll out of more public transport (extra bus lanes, cycle lanes).

I believe the State needs more power to route services through lands and quicker. I say quicker because our economy and the environmental challenges we face require that we should act quickly.

At the same time I believe people should have property rights and should be entitled to a fair compensation for their land. I don't think the current system guarantees this fair value as it is so slow. I don't think that the common good dictates that people should be paid 200 years wages for their land and so they migh thave to be given a bit less money so that projects can be achieved at a reasonable cost while still respecting the landowner. I think a bit of trampling might be required in this regard though I note the Kenny report could be implemented without constitutional challenge.

I aslo don't trust local authorities. I think if the land is not used by a state body on its own (not in public private partnership and not sold on) then the land should be returned and a penalty should be payable.

Apart from the Constitution the ECFHR (?) guarantees property rights. There is also european legislation guaranteeing rights of consultation and so forth. Ultimately EU laws may become the common tools of objectors, obstructions and delayers (the rascals).