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About LinkBacksIts a time thing Hanley, a maturing thing. Do you know the category of people who commit least crime, throughout all societies? Its men over 40. Not even women over 40, they persist with shoplifting and the like.Originally Posted by HanleyS
Its a time thing Hanley, a maturing thing. Do you know the category of people who commit least crime, throughout all societies? Its men over 40. Not even women over 40, they persist with shoplifting and the like.
The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is.
cyberianpan, I think you're missing the point here. If someone throws a hatchet or a feather at you at you and if you report it, the perpetrator, if convicted, would be charged. In ireland hatchet guy would be charged and given the usual inexplicably light sentence of probably 6 months. Feather guy would would probably be given a caution and told to stop acting the eejit. However, if either of them had a suspended sentence hanging over him it would be automatically reactivated regardless of the caution and/or sentence for the latter 'crime' and the latter sentence would be either added to the suspended sentence or subsumed into it using the oul concurrent shyte.No I mean moreso it is a slapdash "Oirish" solution ... my view is that original decision was wrong this lifting of suspension whilst it produces a desirable outcome is also wrong. Carney is fixing a wrong with a wrong.
cYp
But it takes a vicitm to report it and how many people report a cigarette butt being flicked at them? No-one , I'd wager. But this very brave woman did, it was proven and his suspended sentence was activated. Yes, its a great opportunity for the judge but he did not cause the charge to be taken. Furthermore, he had no choice but to activate the suspended sentence.
But the greatest shame for me is that he did not get 15/18 years for this callous rape in the first place.
A P.ie moderator stated this on June 25th 2010: P.ie tolerates very broad free speech, and thus allows sectarian bigotry etc
I spoke recently to a good friend who had gone along to court to support a family member in a case taken against another family member. I didn't ask to much because the guy was visibly upset by the whole thing.
He expressed his total and utter frustration that his loved one got no justice because of a technicality. He said that the accused will go down in one or other of a number of other cases coming before the courts.
He also that that this is of little consolation to his loved one who had to go through the ordeal of giving evidence in the Four Courts. It takes tremendous courage to do that, let alone speak out in public.
He is definitely of the view that the whole system is biased in favour of the accused. I can see his frustration but also realise that their needs to be a balance of protecting the rights of the accused and the victim.
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I'm sure there is lots of merit to that argument. I'll elaborate on mine slightly using my favourite quote on the justice system.
"Reform school was my primary school, St. Patrick's Institution my secondary school, and Mountjoy my university - they taught me everything I know." Martin Cahill.
Also, it's a shame to see young peoples lives wasted and them spending the arguably best years of their lives behind bars. They will mature and they will look back with self-loathing.
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Absolutely. The support mechanisms should be in place for these people*. Often their lives are ruined though and they will never recover or get justice, this is truly sad. This is why it is important to prevent these things happening rather than trying to make ammends afterwards.
* I know from personal experiences that often the people from these support groups and councillors are quacks and can sometimes do more harm than good. You do see some really good people though. Often they are the ones that say very little and moreso listen.
BTW It's funny to see a FFer and a FGer actually talking about politics. You'd hardly believe there was an election on.I'M NOT A FFer!! I have stuck up for Bertie when I see a bullsh1t thread being started about him and I would do the same for a stupid thread on FG but the fact of the matter is the majority of these small number of inane posters are either anti-FF and/or pro-FG. As soon as I see a bullsh1t thread on FG (and I'm sure I've missed a few) I promise to go against that poster :wink: I had a few pints with Bertie once and he is extremely likeable but I wouldn't vote for FF unless I had no other decent choices.
Aaaaanyway! I agree with the essence of what you're saying and I belive there are two individual but equally substantive issues regarding sentencing and crime. Firstly, of course there should be better preventative services and there's a whole load of social services which have been ignored by governments for years. The first thing they should do when they build that incinerator in McDowells front garden is fock those evoting machines into it. Look at the millions being wasted on storage etc Imagine what could be done with that money crime preventative social services such as you suggest!
Secondly, whether or not these services are in place, and even more so when/if they ever are, the person who should be most discussed is the victim, not the perpetrator. Our sentences are so bad and the ordeal of the judicial system for the victims particularly of sex crimes is serious 'hang-our-heads-in-shame' stuff. The perpetrator if he's unlucky enough to actually get a sentence goes into a holiday camp with three square meals a day and access to free (and quicker) health services, free education, free counselling and he committed the goddammed crime! What does the victim get for free...nothing, nada, zilch. Its one of only two issues in Ireland that makes my blood boil (Northern Ireland being the other). Someone asked on another thread what would first contact with aliens be like. I don't think it'll happen because if they ever watch us from a distance they won't want to meet us. Our inexplicable justice system would be like watching an episode of Cheers is to me - too damn funny to spoil.
A P.ie moderator stated this on June 25th 2010: P.ie tolerates very broad free speech, and thus allows sectarian bigotry etc
so Irish people are "slapdash" and speak with funny accents that make them sound stupid. Let us remind ourselves of the Marc Dutroux story before applying that stereotype .No I mean moreso it is a slapdash "Oirish" solution ... my view is that original decision was wrong this lifting of suspension whilst it produces a desirable outcome is also wrong. Carney is fixing a wrong with a wrong.
cYp
whilst i agree with the general thrust of your post (ie the scumbag shouldnt have had the chance to throw a cigarette butt in the first place) your use of the term "Oirish" bugs me . The term was coined to describe an affectation , a non existant stereotype of the Irish character like that of the Quiet Man variety , fake , sickly music hall , top of the mornin , come into the parlour , Danny Boy-esque ballsology that generally makes one sick . It was not meant as a term to denote general stupidity or lack of a conscience in public office . Indeed it is a generally annoying trend amongst native born self proclaimed citizens of the world and west brits to denigrate all things Irish , such as GAA , folk and traditional etc as "oirish" The fact a public official behaved in this manner has nothing to do with being "oirish" . Rape victims throughout the world have experienced similar and much worse treatments at the hands of officialdom .
As regards the act of flicking a cigarette , unlike flicking one at a complete stranger this was done immediately after the trial to a rapists victim . It was an overt display of hostility and agression by the predator towards his victim and an indication that he may have possibly intended her harm . In that context the act was a serious display of hostility , agression and a perceived threat .Therefore the lifting of the suspension was quite sensible and justified in that context , although its a disgrace that the suspension was there in the first place . Had he flicked a cigarette at a passenger who was a complete stranger there would not have been the same level of implied threat . His suspension was lifted because he displayed open hostility and agression towards his victim immediately after walking from the courtroom . The manner in which he displayed it is pretty much irrelevant
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Would you agree that there needs to be a more hollistic approach to crime dealing in equal measure with prevention, correction and victim support? That's what I am saying in essence.
Another point I would make is that by focussing so much attention on detection and sentencing that we are therby reducing the attention received by prevention and victim support. I don't buy into the school of thought that says that the prospect of getting caught is a deterrent. Criminals are prepared to take that gamble. In that way criminal enterprise is not unlike other enterprises, if the reward outweighs the risk then the venture is a viable concern.
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Clearly the judge knew he had made a pigs ear of the whole situation and this lad needed to go to prison before it brought down the government so they were looking for any excuse and all they could come up with was the cigarette thing.
no . His victim bravely waived her anonymity and made the aggression he displayed towards her in public an issue on the media . Flicking the cigarette at her in that context was extremely serious and should not be trivialised . The first decision was wrong but this decision can be justified .
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Absolutely. Thats my point. Getting caught should be a deterrent but it isn't! Why would it be when you have all the things I mentioned earlier?
A P.ie moderator stated this on June 25th 2010: P.ie tolerates very broad free speech, and thus allows sectarian bigotry etc
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