Hypothetical Situation

[Libero]

The Gardai allowed the armed raiders confront the PO workers. They allowed it.

First of all, apologies for attributing quotes to you that weren't yours. Yours and his were close together and I mixed up the names.

Now regarding the above quote, I have to ask how on earth you know this.

Maybe it is self-serving garda spin, but they claim that they fully intended to intercept the gang before any of them entered the Post Office.
They say though that they were surprised by their actions in going through the back entrance.

If this is true, it knocks on the head your idea that they purposely allowed the robbers to enter the Post Office. Yes, they failed to prevent them doing so but that doesn't mean they allowed them to do it.

This is more of what I was talking about when I said that enemies of the gardaí were choosing to believe the worst possible scenario everytime.

Below is some of the Independent's report. That doesn't make it gospel (and their editorial line is dismally tabloid) but the assertions in it point against the gardaí being prepared to allow entry by the gang into the Post Office.

The Garda intelligence indicated that the gang intended to rush into the post office through the front entrance after parking their stolen car outside. Most of the garda party was consequently deployed at the front and a handful at the rear with the intention of capturing the gang as they ran into the store.

But when the gang arrived shortly after 8am they discovered no suitable parking spot for their stolen Skoda car and drove through a side car park to the rear goods delivery entrance.

Members of the emergency response unit and national surveillance unit immediately ran into the store and concealed themselves.

Some of the ERU detectives dashed into the post office to protect the postmistress and hid behind the security screen.

Meanwhile, four raiders, armed with a fully loaded handgun and a sledgehammer, stormed into the store from the rear. One of the gang stood guard at the door while the other three ran to the post office and began smashing the screen.

The gardai immediately identified themselves and called on the gang to lay down their weapons. One of the gang turned and pointed his gun in the direction of the gardai, taking up a firing position. Fearing their lives and the safety of the postmistress were at risk the gardai opened fire and hit the gunman in the chest.

A second raider then ran towards the gardai and he was also hit in the upper body by garda fire.

[edifice.]

The Gardai allowed the armed raiders confront the PO workers. They allowed it.

First of all, apologies for attributing quotes to you that weren't yours. Yours and his were close together and I mixed up the names.

Now regarding the above quote, I have to ask how on earth you know this.

I know that because it happened. If they wished to stop these people from entering the PO they could have intercepted them en-route anywhere from their point of origin to the village of Lusk. They wanted them inside to secure the more serious conviction. This rubbish of them being 'surprised' by the raiders not using the front door merely adds a touch of the keystone cops to the whole affair no more than their media leaks of exchanges of fire and raiders being asked to drop their weapons when it appears only one weapon was present. The gardai were on top of this robbery and they clearly were acting on very specific information.

[edifice.]

From the Indo..


Tests on the bodies of the two raiders showed that the gang leader, Colm "Collie" Griffin (33), was shot initially in the chest and then in the head as he turned towards the direction of a member of the highly-trained Emergency Response Unit and pointed his fully-loaded handgun at the detective.

Remarkable!

Also..

Only one garda fired his weapon, a 9mm Sig Sauer handgun


A wounded man and an unarmed man!

[Libero]

edifice, you really are allowing your dislike of the Gardaí to cloud any ability to analyse the facts.

If they wished to stop these people from entering the PO they could have intercepted them en-route anywhere from their point of origin to the village of Lusk.

What evidence do you have that the Gardaí knew of anything more than the target of the robbery?
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, your assertion that the Gardaí could have intercepted rests on the presumption that they knew all the details as to the origin of the car, the timing and the non-use of a scout car to check the way was clear from ordinary checkpoints.

While the Gardaí do seem to know what dissident republicans eat for their proverbial breakfasts, they appear (until now) to have had little inside knowledge of these bank robbing gangs. It seems to me to be quite possible that the gardaí knew nothing more than the target and time of the robbery.
That said, there is a possibility they were prepared to wait to catch the gang going into the Post Office to secure the more serious charge, and I don't have much confidence in an internal Garda report outlining all the facts as to what the Gardaí knew beforehand.

This rubbish of them being 'surprised' by the raiders not using the front door merely adds a touch of the keystone cops to the whole affair no more than their media leaks of exchanges of fire and raiders being asked to drop their weapons when it appears only one weapon was present. The gardai were on top of this robbery and they clearly were acting on very specific information.

Again, you are choosing to believe the worst case scenario, but you don't even have the good grace to present this as opinion rather than fact.
So not only do you come across as cynical but as dishonest, too.

It's one thing to be sceptical of what the gardaí say and do, but proclaiming them guilty of x, y, and z without any proof is just the mirror image of Harpey and True04 who think that republicans are out eating babies every second day with fish on a Friday.

[edifice.]

edifice, you really are allowing your dislike of the Gardaí to cloud any ability to analyse the facts

.

Or experience to enable objective analysis.


[quote:2mqvybna]What evidence do you have that the Gardaí knew of anything more than the target of the robbery?

From the gardai's own public assertions that this was an operation preceeding operation Anvil.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, your assertion that the Gardaí could have intercepted rests on the presumption that they knew all the details as to the origin of the car, the timing and the non-use of a scout car to check the way was clear from ordinary checkpoints.

Nothing of which prevented the gardai from intercepting them prior to entry of the PO.

While the Gardaí do seem to know what dissident republicans eat for their proverbial breakfasts, they appear (until now) to have had little inside knowledge of these bank robbing gangs. It seems to me to be quite possible that the gardaí knew nothing more than the target and time of the robbery.

Of course its possible but it would seem otherwise given the level of their presence at the scene. Any prior information concerning the target would have to be accompanied by parallel info concerning the the calibre of the raiders to justify that level of presence.

That said, there is a possibility they were prepared to wait to catch the gang going into the Post Office to secure the more serious charge, and I don't have much confidence in an internal Garda report outlining all the facts as to what the Gardaí knew beforehand.

Agreed.

Again, you are choosing to believe the worst case scenario, but you don't even have the good grace to present this as opinion rather than fact.
So not only do you come across as cynical but as dishonest, too.

Forgive me I would have thought it was quite basic that in a stakeout all exits are equally covered.

It's one thing to be sceptical of what the gardaí say and do, but proclaiming them guilty of x, y, and z without any proof is just the mirror image of Harpey and True04 who think that republicans are out eating babies every second day with fish on a Friday.

[/quote:2mqvybna]

Its not a matter of proclaiming guilt, unlike the lavish garda reports of gunbattles and desperados to proclaim their innocence but this is indicative of a pattern of recent events similar to this were people were killed in circumstances where it would seem that for 'highly trained' detectives other options were clearly available.

Look at the above post on the Indo. One garda made all these decisions concerning two individuals and concluded he had no option but to fire? Can you really dissect the above account and come up with a system of rational decision making concerning a series of events?

[Libero]

What evidence do you have that the Gardaí knew of anything more than the target of the robbery?

From the gardai's own public assertions that this was an operation preceeding operation Anvil.

That is a non sequiter. The conclusion that they were able to plan an intercept does not follow from the fact that this was an operation preceding operation Anvil.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, your assertion that the Gardaí could have intercepted rests on the presumption that they knew all the details as to the origin of the car, the timing and the non-use of a scout car to check the way was clear from ordinary checkpoints.

Nothing of which prevented the gardai from intercepting them prior to entry of the PO.

I don't see how you can say that. Surely the gardaí would need to know the route any car or cars would take in order to plan a ro****************************************** intercept?
In addition, robbery gangs sometimes use a scout car to make sure there is no ordinary Garda activity on the road anyway. That could also hinder any planned interception on the road.

Can you really dissect the above account and come up with a system of rational decision making concerning a series of events?

Well yes I can, but then again I'm not operating off the presumption that the Gardaí go around intentionally killing criminals, so until I see proof suggesting otherwise I'll tend to give them the benefit of the doubt. And even if I did suspect misbehaviour, I would state that belief as opinion rather than coming on a message board and proclaiming it as fact.

Enemies of the state sometimes flatter themselves by pretending that they are up against a lethal and vicious enemy in the Garda Síochána. In comparison with police forces around the world and throughout history, our Gardaí uphold high standards of behaviour. Of course, scrutiny upholds this but nobody is fooled by enemies of the Gardaí pretending to be concerned citizens.

[Libero]

What evidence do you have that the Gardaí knew of anything more than the target of the robbery?

From the gardai's own public assertions that this was an operation preceeding operation Anvil.

That is a non sequiter. The conclusion that they were able to plan an intercept does not follow from the fact that this was an operation preceding operation Anvil.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, your assertion that the Gardaí could have intercepted rests on the presumption that they knew all the details as to the origin of the car, the timing and the non-use of a scout car to check the way was clear from ordinary checkpoints.

Nothing of which prevented the gardai from intercepting them prior to entry of the PO.

I don't see how you can say that. Surely the gardaí would need to know the route any car or cars would take in order to plan a ro****************************************** intercept?
In addition, robbery gangs sometimes use a scout car to make sure there is no ordinary Garda activity on the road anyway. That could also hinder any planned interception on the road.

Can you really dissect the above account and come up with a system of rational decision making concerning a series of events?

Well yes I can, but then again I'm not operating off the presumption that the Gardaí go around intentionally killing criminals, so until I see proof suggesting otherwise I'll tend to give them the benefit of the doubt. And even if I did suspect misbehaviour, I would state that belief as opinion rather than coming on a message board and proclaiming it as fact.

Enemies of the state sometimes flatter themselves by pretending that they are up against a lethal and vicious adversary in the Garda Síochána. In comparison with police forces around the world and throughout history, our Gardaí uphold high standards of behaviour. Of course, scrutiny upholds this but nobody is fooled by enemies of the Gardaí pretending to be concerned citizens.

[edifice.]

That is a non sequiter. The conclusion that they were able to plan an intercept does not follow from the fact that this was an operation preceding operation Anvil.

No it is not, it is a conclusion from empirical data. The level of Garda presence clearly indicates that this was not operating on the basis of an anonymous tip-off but on hard intelligence. That intelligence demands surveillance be placed on the individuals involved to both determine the veracity of the intelligence and the scale of what the gardai would have to confront. Not to do such intelligence would be negligent. They knew who was involved.


[quote:wmmqc2we]I don't see how you can say that. Surely the gardaí would need to know the route any car or cars would take in order to plan a ro****************************************** intercept?
In addition, robbery gangs sometimes use a scout car to make sure there is no ordinary Garda activity on the road anyway. That could also hinder any planned interception on the road.

This was not ordinary garda activity but covert. Additionally electronic surveillance monitored from aerial reconissance is standard fare.

Well yes I can, but then again I'm not operating off the presumption that the Gardaí go around intentionally killing criminals, so until I see proof suggesting otherwise I'll tend to give them the benefit of the doubt. And even if I did suspect misbehaviour, I would state that belief as opinion rather than coming on a message board and proclaiming it as fact.

Nobody is stating that they were killed intentionally. What is being stated, from previous incidents, is that alternatives could well have been available and that aspects of the operation are questionable.

Enemies of the state sometimes flatter themselves by pretending that they are up against a lethal and vicious adversary in the Garda Síochána. In comparison with police forces around the world and throughout history, our Gardaí uphold high standards of behaviour. Of course, scrutiny upholds this but nobody is fooled by enemies of the Gardaí pretending to be concerned citizens.

[/quote:wmmqc2we]

One wonders do corrupt gardai fall into the category of 'enemy of the state'? Unfortunately the 'high standards' of the gardai are not complimented by a high standard of accountability, at the gardai's insistence, where in concerned citizens can observe this scrutiny. It seems some 'enemies of the state' are despatched to prison without trial by jury whereas others never even reach a trial of any description. But yet again maybe that's an exchange of fire too far.