Fine Gael wrong on foreign students

[USER1234]

FutureTaoiseach, i get the feeling that you feel that most of these language schools are up to no good as well as there students instead of a small minority, is this true

[FutureTaoiseach]

FutureTaoiseach, i get the feeling that you feel that most of these language schools are up to no good as well as there students instead of a small minority, is this true

That is impossible to know because of the absence of regulation and registration of the sector. My personal opinion is that it is disproportionately being used for economic migration. Dermot Ahern admits in the link I gave that in some cases, a student-visa is almost the only way of settling here legally.

I would not tar everyone with the one brush, but neither will I be silenced by the PC-brigade. But reports of abuses of the system are now so rampant as to leave little doubt that for many, they are little more than a vehicle for illegal-immigration. I believe this is less likely to be the case for nationals of wealthy countries however. I will not be silenced by Political-Correctness but neither do I tar everyone with the one brush. If the system were properly regulated, many of my concerns would disappear - provided the economy improved significantly first. Charity begins at home. I bear no ill will to other nations - but I will always put the interests of my own first. That is what patriotism is about (as opposed to unpatriotic sentiments).

I know that for some Eurofederalists, the international-student system is part of a "one-worlder" agenda in which nations are reduced to markets. I am not opposed to a foreign-student system in theory. But the timing is all wrong, and there is no regulation of the sector. Human nature is such that loopholes will be exploited. The politicians are trying to put the cart before the horse in letting people in without verification that their 'schools' are legitimate and not fronts for trafficking people into the State.

[Supermanpolitician]

A better solution is to make rich Irish people pay fees or allow universities to raise money on the stock-market.

What an absurd idea.

Even though I am a capitalist through and through, this would mean the end of non vocational courses in universities. Political science would cease, History, Music, English Literature, Humanism, etc would all cease

Even vocational courses such as medicine would have to be financed to make a profit. Even though they cost more with "additional fees" they still would not come close to being self financinig. It would mean that either fees sky rocket or we would have some type of post grad tax specific to these students. We have seen what this leads to in Sweden - a chronis shortage of dentists who all emigrated after they qualified.

[hiding behind a poster]

FutureTaoiseach, you do realise that this proposal brings REAL students to REAL courses in REAL universities, and as such has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue of bogus students?
Because the fast-track visas would be issued for those attending SPECIFIC courses, scholarships are by definition for SPECIFIC courses, and additional English-language courses are, well, COURSES. It makes no difference to bogus students whether particular courses exist or not, as they'll just pretend to be on a course they're not on anyway.
Your ability to stick the blinkers on is becoming legendary at this stage.

[laidback]

Currently non Eu students are allowed to work 20 hrs pw - but this doesn't seem to be policed hence you have 'students' working full-time.

I'm told that some employers put the hourly rate down as double what it is to give the legal no of hrs so if they did get an inspection they're not breaking the rules.

I've no problem encouraging more genuine international students here providing they are not allowed to do part-time work. Currently international students (genuine and otherwise) are taking part-time jobs which Irish students really need to help fund their studies.

[clonycavanman]

Have you considered that allowing such students in from non-Eu countries might allow Irish universities to stay afloat, something that will benefit many Irish people.

This proposal and Fine Gael's 'double the number' proposal require competent management by our State authorities or the consequences will work to the disadvantage of the Irish people.

The numbers concerned are very large; this Dept of Foreign Affairs page claims that 'In 2007 students from 142 countries pursue courses in Higher Education in Ireland, with another 140,000 studying English here.'
Department of Foreign Affairs - Home

The consultation paper dated 1 Sept 2009 from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, entitled 'Proposed new Immigration Regime for full-time non-EEA Students' admits that 'abuses of the system' have taken place and then proposes as a new policy a number of the most basic and obvious checks and requirements, which apparently have not been taking place.
www.inis.gov.ie>publications>Immigration/Asylum

Quote:
'It has been observed that many students have been engaged in serial enrollment in English classes from year to year...the limit of 18 months has not been strictly applied'

'Some difficulties have arisen where students [ie children of persons here on student permits] were being placed in State schools contrary to the policy of the Dept of Education and Science.'

'Under the current regime there is no weighting as between the academic level of the course, the ability or potential of the student, the reputation of the institution or the subjects being studied.
...the flexibility to to develop on a more differentiated basis would allow for better targeting of incentives to students of high ability, in line with Irish economic policy objectives generally.
'There is at present no requirement that a student should progress academically through the system and there is currently no limit to the amount of time a person can spend here as a student.
These issues also need to be addressed...the weakness of inspection and the enrollment of minor children in State schools by parents who are themselves present on student permission.'

Comment: There is much else. These reform proposals expose how negligent the Fianna Fail Government has been in safeguarding the interests of the Irish State and people over the past decade, and it is characteristically empty of Fine Gael to think they will just double the load upon a failing regulatory regime, and believe the result will be a clever policy.

Thank you, Future Taoiseach.

[Dr Pat]

This proposal and Fine Gael's 'double the number' proposal require competent management by our State authorities or the consequences will work to the disadvantage of the Irish people.

The numbers concerned are very large; this Dept of Foreign Affairs page claims that 'In 2007 students from 142 countries pursue courses in Higher Education in Ireland, with another 140,000 studying English here.'
Department of Foreign Affairs - Home

The consultation paper dated 1 Sept 2009 from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, entitled 'Proposed new Immigration Regime for full-time non-EEA Students' admits that 'abuses of the system' have taken place and then proposes as a new policy a number of the most basic and obvious checks and requirements, which apparently have not been taking place.
www.inis.gov.ie>publications>Immigration/Asylum

Quote:
'It has been observed that many students have been engaged in serial enrollment in English classes from year to year...the limit of 18 months has not been strictly applied'

'Some difficulties have arisen where students [ie children of persons here on student permits] were being placed in State schools contrary to the policy of the Dept of Education and Science.'

'Under the current regime there is no weighting as between the academic level of the course, the ability or potential of the student, the reputation of the institution or the subjects being studied.
...the flexibility to to develop on a more differentiated basis would allow for better targeting of incentives to students of high ability, in line with Irish economic policy objectives generally.
'There is at present no requirement that a student should progress academically through the system and there is currently no limit to the amount of time a person can spend here as a student.
These issues also need to be addressed...the weakness of inspection and the enrollment of minor children in State schools by parents who are themselves present on student permission.'

Comment: There is much else. These reform proposals expose how negligent the Fianna Fail Government has been in safeguarding the interests of the Irish State and people over the past decade, and it is characteristically empty of Fine Gael to think they will just double the load upon a failing regulatory regime, and believe the result will be a clever policy.

Thank you, Future Taoiseach.

+1. FT is correct. To promulgate a policy of attracting even more foreign students without even considering the downside, of which there is already significant evidence, is the height of folly by Fine Gael and a disgrace.

However, it is typical of establishment parties to promote policies without looking at the larger picture; they are all lax when it comes to enforcement on immigration matters and seem to take a cavalier attitude to it.

Following a suggestion of a FG member of politics.ie who refused to engage me with me on FG policy on immigration, I looked at the party website to try to find an overarching policy on immigration matters. I might as well have been looking at a comic book - lots of references to immigration matters but all ad hocery mostly to try to get one over on FF, rather pathetic actually.

[USER1234]

Currently non Eu students are allowed to work 20 hrs pw - but this doesn't seem to be policed hence you have 'students' working full-time.

Thats up to the employer to enforce!!!!

I'm told that some employers put the hourly rate down as double what it is to give the legal no of hrs so if they did get an inspection they're not breaking the rules.

Never heard that before but if they are that up to the employer and employee as while there are rules on how many hours a student can work the pay agreements up to them, and if it is happening id say it a very very rare event!!!

I've no problem encouraging more genuine international students here providing they are not allowed to do part-time work. Currently international students (genuine and otherwise) are taking part-time jobs which Irish students really need to help fund their studies.

The down side to that is that if we don't allow them to do part time jobs we wont have any international students (genuine and otherwise) as how will they live here if they cant 1) get some where to live 2) get food 3) have money for any other thing, you see all these thing cost money and to have money you need a job!!!

[Dr Pat]

Thats up to the employer to enforce!!!!




Never heard that before but if they are that up to the employer and employee as while there are rules on how many hours a student can work the pay agreements up to them, and if it is happening id say it a very very rare event!!!




The down side to that is that if we don't allow them to do part time jobs we wont have any international students (genuine and otherwise) as how will they live here if they cant 1) get some where to live 2) get food 3) have money for any other thing, you see all these thing cost money and to have money you need a job!!!

How do you know that it is a rare event?

All of this is really a circular argument and seems to justify the bogus student who is, in reality, an economic migrant. Fine Gael in their proposal, of course, turns a blind eye to abuse of the system and you would prefer to as well it seems.

Establishment parties owe their first duty to Irish citizens, not foreign students who may or may not be economic migrants.

[Catalpa]

Fine Gael have announced plans to double Ireland's existing number of foreign-students from 40,000 to 80,000 - despite the recession and rampant abuse of the system by 'visa-factory schools':At the same time, they failed to announce proposals to tackle rampant abuse of the system by bogus English-language schools. There is no compulsory registration of English-language schools. They need only provide an applicant 'student' with a letter of recommendation, and the latter can then send their application to Irish embassies and consulates. Instead of importing more labour-competition, they should be concentrating on providing jobs for the people already living here:Ironically, as recently as February 10th 2010, Fine Gael Immigration and Integration Spokesman Dennis Naughten admitted the system is being abused by bogus students and criticised Justice Minister Dermot Ahern for long-fingering a bill to reform the system:Fine Gael must shelve these proposals until such time as unemployment falls significantly and the economy returns to growth. To import more cheap migrant labour is a slap in the face to the 400,000 Irish unemployed. Charity begins at home. It is grossly irresponsible to promote an increase in cheap-labour during the greatest recession since the Second World War. Furthermore, there is every likelihood that in a Rainbow government, Labour would veto regulation of the sector as part of its open-borders immigration policy.

It is the policy that I am against - not immigrants themselves. Write to the Fine Gael Immigration and Integration Spokesman, Dennis Naughten TD, to oppose this measure.

Good Post FT

As I said on another thread earlier today FG dont care about Irish Workers.

And here is the proof.:

To import more cheap migrant labour is a slap in the face to the 400,000 Irish unemployed.

Slap them one back!