Rape and murder of a little girl - still a mystery

[reknaw]

A certain Sunday Independent journalist quoted by yourself has made allegations that a Catholic priest (in fact 2 priests) were involved in the murder of a 10 year old girl in 1970. On 22 December 2002 the same journalist in an article in the same newspaper quoted Mannix Flynn as claimimg that:

News 21st December 2002 | OneinFour.org

"And this is only the tip of the iceberg. The whole point for people to realise now is that hundreds of children were locked away in Letterfrack, hundreds of children were raped and murdered. It's a holocaust we're dealing with. In every bit of land around Letterfrack there is a child buried."

And she wasn't being sarcastic; she supported him. Yet the Christian Brothers pointed out that the last boy who died in Letterfrack was buried there more than 25 years before Mannix Flynn's time.

Your source is about as reliable as the people who claim that Jews murdered Christian Boys.

I have not quoted any journalist, from the Sindo or any other medium, on this thread. I merely posted a link to an article and invited people to read it and discuss.

It is, I believe, beyond dispute that terrible things were done to children by religious in the past. We owe it to those children and to ourselves as a society to find out, to the extent that we possibly can, what other unknown terrible things were done. If we know that and perhaps are able to understand why, we can build a better future for posterity.

My question is, I repeat it again, and I would welcome your answering it: why don't the church and the religious orders reveal everything they possibly can about what went on in past decades, what was discussed, if they now understand that they may not have acted in the wisest way, and if they have learned anything from it?

This has nothing at all to do with Jews, of whom there are very few in Ireland, and who are probably down on their knees (or whatever they do) thanking their version of the sky fairy for the fact that they have had nothing whatsoever to do with the horrible crimes that have been perpetrated against the children of Ireland. So leave them out of it and tell me why you persist in believing that the kiddy-fiddler church is not accountable to the people in Ireland.

[Andrew49]

"And this is only the tip of the iceberg. The whole point for people to realise now is that hundreds of children were locked away in Letterfrack, hundreds of children were raped and murdered. It's a holocaust we're dealing with. In every bit of land around Letterfrack there is a child buried."

St Joseph's Industrial School in Letterfrack remains the location of one of the most haunting images to emerge from Ireland's 52 industrial schools. It is of small boys forced to run endlessly around a bare stone yard for hours in the wet and the cold, holding their sheets above their heads. These were the bed-wetters, and the idea was that they had to run until their sheets were dry. If they slowed or flagged, they were beaten. The problem, of course, was that in the persistent rain and mist of Connemara, the sheets just got wetter and heavier. But still the children were made to run for hours. This kind of warped, sadistic cruelty was the hallmark of Letterfrack. The youngest boy buried here is Bernard Kerrigan aged 4 years.

Survivors of the Letterfrack Industrial School in Connemara uncovered the unmarked grave of a four-year-old boy who died while in the custody of the Christian Brothers and was buried in woods near the school. The discovery came about when a 74-year-old man turned up for a ceremony to mark the graves of the estimated 99 boys who died at the school between the 1870s until it closed in the Seventies. The man brought organisers to a site in the woods near the school where they found the grave of Bernard Kerrigan. The elderly man, who wishes to remain anonymous, told the organisers of the event he had played with the boy in the schoolyard and wanted to visit his grave before he died. It was 'discovered' from Christian Brothers' records that at least 99 boys died in Letterfrack.The Christian Brothers said that incomplete records had been kept at Letterfrack and that they had kept full records in their Dublin Provincialate. In many cases there were no death certificates. They are not registered in the Register of Deaths in Galway. On death certificates we have seen the boys have also been robbed of their parentage. They are down as
'son of a tinker'
'son of a labourer'
'son of a butcher'

Such was Letterfrack, such was the inhuman nature of the Christian Brothers. Kilbarry1 is a former member of a Religious Order - This Evil Religious Order

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKeeud20QB4"]YouTube- Letterfrack Boys Graves[/ame]

[Kilbarry1]

.................
My question is, I repeat it again, and I would welcome your answering it: why don't the church and the religious orders reveal everything they possibly can about what went on in past decades, what was discussed, if they now understand that they may not have acted in the wisest way, and if they have learned anything from it?

This has nothing at all to do with Jews, of whom there are very few in Ireland, and who are probably down on their knees (or whatever they do) thanking their version of the sky fairy for the fact that they have had nothing whatsoever to do with the horrible crimes that have been perpetrated against the children of Ireland. So leave them out of it and tell me why you persist in believing that the kiddy-fiddler church is not accountable to the people in Ireland.

I am not an expert on the Bernadette Connolly murder case but the people who claim that the Church and the religious orders are NOT revealing all they know are :

(a) the Sunday Independent which falsely claimed in December 2002, that the Christian Brothers had murdered hundreds of boys in Letterfrack

(b) the Evening Herald which in April 2001, falsely accused the Brothers of murdering William Delaney 31 years before. When the body was exhumed and the pathologists report confirmed death by natural causes, the Herald buried the story.

I have given details of both allegations in previous posts.

Why do you believe those reports? It is like accepting, at face value claims by anti-Semites that Jews murdered Christian children. Blood Libels do not suddenly become respectable just because the authors are secular liberals and the targets are Catholics.

[Kilbarry1]

I am not an expert on the Bernadette Connolly murder case but the people who claim that the Church and the religious orders are NOT revealing all they know are :

(a) the Sunday Independent which falsely claimed in December 2002, that the Christian Brothers had murdered hundreds of boys in Letterfrack

(b) the Evening Herald which in April 2001, falsely accused the Brothers of murdering William Delaney 31 years before. When the body was exhumed and the pathologists report confirmed death by natural causes, the Herald buried the story.

I have given details of both allegations in previous posts.

Why do you believe those reports? It is like accepting, at face value claims by anti-Semites that Jews murdered Christian children. Blood Libels do not suddenly become respectable just because the authors are secular liberals and the targets are Catholics.

"Why do you believe those reports?". Badly worded. I should have said; "Why do you believe their claims that the Church withheld information about the Bernadette Connolly case?" (since they are clearly lying about other allegations of child murder made against the Church.)

[Didimus]

"Why do you believe those reports?". Badly worded. I should have said; "Why do you believe their claims that the Church withheld information about the Bernadette Connolly case?" (since they are clearly lying about other allegations of child murder made against the Church.)

There are differences between the cases you cite and the Bernadette Connolly murder, not the least of which is that there was a murder. It also seems to be the case that Fr Kelly was questioned about the case.
I have nothing but contempt for the Herald's journalistic standards. However now that questions have been raised it seems to me that it is in everybody's interest to have the case re-examined, in order both to see if any evidence can be found as to the guilty party and also that would ndcate if there was in fact any outside nterference in the case.

[Kilbarry1]

There are differences between the cases you cite and the Bernadette Connolly murder, not the least of which is that there was a murder. It also seems to be the case that Fr Kelly was questioned about the case.
I have nothing but contempt for the Herald's journalistic standards. However now that questions have been raised it seems to me that it is in everybody's interest to have the case re-examined, in order both to see if any evidence can be found as to the guilty party and also that would ndcate if there was in fact any outside nterference in the case.

The trouble with investigating these allegations is that the very fact of doing so gives them a kind of credibility. Imagine investigating a child muder allegation against a Jewish rabbi, nearly 40 years after the murder and based on the type of "evidence" produced by the Evening Herald. Obviously it would not just be a waste of police time, it would encourage anti-Semites to make more false allegations.

The Blood Libel hysteria in Ireland began with the broadcast by RTE of "Dear Daughter" in February 1996 and reached a creshendo after the broadcast of the "States of Fear" series in April/May 1999. It seemed to fizzzle out about 2004 but is now re-igniting again. Clearly this is not because there is new evidence that Catholic clergy or religious murdered children; it is because of the publication of the Murphy Report. Yet that Report said nothing whatsoever about child killing claims. The main result of a Garda investigation into child killing claims will be to encourage the kind of people who created that hysteria in the first place.

If people think I am being disrespectful to the creators of the above-mentioned RTE documentaries, I recommend they check out the article by UK historian (and atheist I think) Richard Webster called: "States of Fear, the Redress Board and Ireland's Folly"
'States of Fear', the redress board and Ireland's folly

Consider in particular what he has to say about "Dear Daughter":

The Irish story then developed in a manner which paralleled the development of the North Wales story. In 1996 the producer and director, Louis Lentin, made a television documentary about abuse in children’s homes which was shown by RTE, the main public service broadcasting station in Ireland. It focused on the brutal regime which was said to have been operating during the 1950s at St Vincent’s Industrial School, Goldenbridge, one of a network children’s homes or detention centres which were funded by the state and run by the Catholic Church. The documentary featured allegations made against Sister Xavieria, one of the nuns belonging to the Sisters of Mercy order which ran the home.

The woman ‘survivor’ at the centre of the film claimed that, on one occasion, she had been caned by Sister Xavieria so severely that the entire side of her leg was split open from her hip to her knee. She says she was treated in the casualty department of the local hospital and believes that she received 80 to 120 stitches. No medical evidence has ever been produced to substantiate this bizarre claim. The surgeon who ran the casualty department at the hospital in question has given evidence which renders it highly unlikely that such an incident ever took place. Apart from anything else, the surgeon points out that caning would not have caused a wound of this kind, which would have required surgical treatment under a general anaesthetic and not stitches in a casualty department.

Yet although the evidence suggests that the woman’s memory was a delusion, her testimony was widely believed at the time. In the wake of the broadcast, atrocity stories about Goldenbridge and other industrial schools began to proliferate. (my emphasis)

[Didimus]

Kilbarry
Listing what you believe to be, and may well be in some cases, false or mistaken accusations has no bearing on the Bernadette Connolly case.

[Frankie Lee]

The trouble with investigating these allegations is that the very fact of doing so gives them a kind of credibility. Imagine investigating a child muder allegation against a Jewish rabbi, nearly 40 years after the murder and based on the type of "evidence" produced by the Evening Herald. Obviously it would not just be a waste of police time, it would encourage anti-Semites to make more false allegations.

The Blood Libel hysteria in Ireland began with the broadcast by RTE of "Dear Daughter" in February 1996 and reached a creshendo after the broadcast of the "States of Fear" series in April/May 1999. It seemed to fizzzle out about 2004 but is now re-igniting again. Clearly this is not because there is new evidence that Catholic clergy or religious murdered children; it is because of the publication of the Murphy Report. Yet that Report said nothing whatsoever about child killing claims. The main result of a Garda investigation into child killing claims will be to encourage the kind of people who created that hysteria in the first place.

If people think I am being disrespectful to the creators of the above-mentioned RTE documentaries, I recommend they check out the article by UK historian (and atheist I think) Richard Webster called: "States of Fear, the Redress Board and Ireland's Folly"
'States of Fear', the redress board and Ireland's folly

Consider in particular what he has to say about "Dear Daughter":

The Irish story then developed in a manner which paralleled the development of the North Wales story. In 1996 the producer and director, Louis Lentin, made a television documentary about abuse in children’s homes which was shown by RTE, the main public service broadcasting station in Ireland. It focused on the brutal regime which was said to have been operating during the 1950s at St Vincent’s Industrial School, Goldenbridge, one of a network children’s homes or detention centres which were funded by the state and run by the Catholic Church. The documentary featured allegations made against Sister Xavieria, one of the nuns belonging to the Sisters of Mercy order which ran the home.

The woman ‘survivor’ at the centre of the film claimed that, on one occasion, she had been caned by Sister Xavieria so severely that the entire side of her leg was split open from her hip to her knee. She says she was treated in the casualty department of the local hospital and believes that she received 80 to 120 stitches. No medical evidence has ever been produced to substantiate this bizarre claim. The surgeon who ran the casualty department at the hospital in question has given evidence which renders it highly unlikely that such an incident ever took place. Apart from anything else, the surgeon points out that caning would not have caused a wound of this kind, which would have required surgical treatment under a general anaesthetic and not stitches in a casualty department.

Yet although the evidence suggests that the woman’s memory was a delusion, her testimony was widely believed at the time. In the wake of the broadcast, atrocity stories about Goldenbridge and other industrial schools began to proliferate. (my emphasis)

You really are a disgusting human being.

[Kilbarry1]

Kilbarry
Listing what you believe to be, and may well be in some cases, false or mistaken accusations has no bearing on the Bernadette Connolly case.

What is important is the effect of the publication and broadcast of false allegations in a completely uncritical fashion. Richard Webster points out that the broadcast of "Dear Daughter" led to a flood of atrocity stories (among which was the first Blood Lbel.). These were mainly in newspapers however. The broadcast of the "States of Fear" series in mid 1999 had an even more striking impact. It caused a serious historian Diarmaid Ferriter to believe in Blood Libels - only ones directed against the Catholic Church of course! The following is from page 393/94 of his book “The Transformation of Ireland 1900-2000″.

“In the 1990s, it was discovered that the most glaring omissions from the archive files of the industrial-school system related to information concerning the deaths of children – it is highly unlikely that those missing or unaccounted for wandered innocently outside the gates of industrial schools and became lost and untraceable. [104]. It is more probable, though difficult to prove conclusively, that a small number of Irish children were beaten to death in state-financed, religious-run institutions.”

Note 104:. Mary Raftery and Eoin O’Sullivan “Suffer The Little Children: The Inside Story of Ireland’s Industrial Schools”, (Dublin, 1999), page 233-4 and 271-274″

Note that Diarmaid Ferriter's claim is based on “evidence” from RTE producer/director Mary Raftery. (The book "Suffer the Little Children" was a follow up to the "States of Fear" broadcasts.) A garda investigation into alleged complicity by Catholic priests in the murder of a 10 year old girl nearly 40 years ago is unlikely to produce any CONCRETE results. But it will certainly generate further hysteria!

[Didimus]

Kilbarry
An investigation could establish whether and to what extent Bob Reynolds was questioned, whether there was any positive evidence to link anybody from the monastery to the murder, what were the recorded contacts between churc/order officials and the guards, and whether the investigation ended prematurely. The innuendo that Fr Kelly disappeared off to Africa suddenly could be rebutted by records that showed when his appointment was made.