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About LinkBacksSo what do you lads and lassies make of this piece of legislature?
So what do you lads and lassies make of this piece of legislature?
Can you point me to some details about it? I don't listen much to the radio, I don't have a tv and I only read the Indo because they're in O'Briens.
We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when creating them
Do you mean the crominal justice bill which will introduce ASBOs
It is disgraceful
It introduces On The Spot Fines, Anti-social Behaviour Orders and lots of other draconian authoritarian unnecessary for the Gardi
An on The Spot Fine could be served by a gardai on an individual if he or she has "reasonable grounds" for believing that a person is committing or has committed an arrestable offence. The garda does not need proof, or even compelling evidence, that the person has been breaking the law.
In other words they will be empowered to act as judge and jury.
The introduction of ASBOs will allow Gardai to apply to the courts for an Anti-social Behaviour Order, which will prohibit a specified person from behaving in an offending way. This will be done by way of a civil procedure, which will make it less rigorous and more open to abuse than criminal proceedings. According to many civil liberties groups in the UK ASBOs just do not work.
http://www.hotpress.com/petitions/petition.adp
http://www.labour.ie/youth/news/index/2 ... 22020.html
http://www.childrensrights.ie/pubs/ASBOs220405.doc
Don't have a problem with On The Spot fines. Those who dispute the "reasonable grounds" can go to court as usual, and the whole thing is no more "judge and jury" than the current road traffic regime with its On the Spot fines: something I'm not aware that Hot Press or Labour Youth have a problem with.
Indeed, it's considerably more liberal than the current Interim Barring Order laws, where people can be removed from their homes with no warning or right of reply on even less evidence. And I doubt that Labour or that esteemed organ of Trinity Street have any problem with that whatsoever.
However, ABSOs are a seriously bad idea. It's a shame that they will become law with hardly a whimper against them.
As magic_norhan states, they dangerously lower the evidence requirement for criminalisation by turning 'anti-social behaviour' them into a civil matter.
That means that anybody could in theory have you locked up on no real evidence for what isn't even a criminal act.
The braying voices in the media supporting ASBOs are truly depressing. If little skangers are causing hassle, that is a criminal offence and can be tackled as such. ASBOs just open the door to penal sanction for non-crimes with non-evidence.
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And it won't stop Dick Roche defacing Tara by carving a motorway through an ancient site.
Typical McDowell legislation, all sound and no content.
Libero, what Interim Barring Orders? The ones that can be obtained under the domestic violence act? The ones that can last a maxium of 8 days, and only when applied for in court where the judge is satisfied that there is an immediate risk to the life/safety of a victim of domestic violence? The main thing being that they're obtained in a court, handed down by a judge.
I think there could be a reasonably good constitutional case against on the spot fines if the court option would impose a higher fine. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Criminal Justice Bill referred to the supreme court and possibly struck down.
On the spot fines - a bit of a joke unless they intend actually putting Gardai on the beat to actually impose them.
In fairness, On The Spot fines will free up Garda resources by cutting down on the amount of time spent administering arrests down at the station and appearing in court (even if the plea is guilty).Originally Posted by LooseCannon
Of course many offences will just warrant a telling off or have a name taken (as they do already) but others come between that a full arrest and charge. That's what the fines are for and should save Garda time to deal with other offences.
Yes, section 4 of the 1996 Act.
These can be applied for on an ex parte basis, meaning that the applicant partner shows up in court without even notifying the person who is to be the subject of the order.
Of course the Act demands reasonable grounds for believing "there is an immediate risk of significant harm" but any old hearsay can do and if ex parte, it is uncontested. Any uncorroborated horror story can have a partner chucked out of their home with no warning.
Of course society sees this as a necessary evil to protect vulnerable partners from domestic violence. It has been upheld as constitutional by the Supreme Court. I also think that it is regrettable but necessary.
My argument is that before getting high and mighty about On The Spot fines, opponents should ask themselves how much they are really committed to their professed principles. They should ask this because there are tensions between supporting the kind short-cuts for Interim Barring Orders that I have described and yet opposing the modest measure that is On The Spot fines, or even opposing ASBOs. While I oppose the latter, I can see how it is inconsistent to wail about lower standards of proof in tackling anti-social behaviour but turn a blind eye to same when it comes to domestic violence.
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Libero, Interim Barring Orders have several limits on them, eg they can only last for 8 days, the proof element isn't as lax as you make out, the applicant must be a spouse or have equal or greater share in the home from which the respondent is being barred and the order will be made ex parte only on rare occassions. They are necessarily draconian so as not to put the lives of victims in danger. No such requirement exists with on the spot fines. What's more, there are a number of restrictions on them to ensure their constitutionality, such as the property ownership requirement, anything less than these safeguards would probably render elements of the DVA unconstitutional, eg a few years ago Interim Barring Orders with no time limit were found to be unconstitutional so the DVA Amendment Act 2002 changed this, limiting their operation to 8 days.
On the spot fines effectively require citizens to circumvent the courts system which they are entitled to avail of by telling them that if they go to court they will have to pay more in a fine. This punishes people for seeking the full safeguards of the courts system. I dont have a problem with On the Spot fines, so long as they are at the same level as fines if the matter is taken to court. Until they are, I strongly suspect they could be unconstitutional. If you want to discourage clogging of courts system fair enough, let it to the necessary inconveniences of going to court to discourage people who know that they will be found guilty anyway from taking it to court; ie if you know that you're going to have the fine implemented anyway, you're not going to be too willing to to take time off work, go through the tv-licence-style shame etc.
My question is are gardai
1.willing
2.able
to enforce laws against anti-social behaviour?
I don't think there are enough of them (or they're not visible/accessible enough) and creating new laws that need enforcing is hardly going to help the situation!
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