"The Lost Revolution: A History of the OIRA and Workers Party"

[netron]

Kenny should stick to interviewing soap stars. Hasn't a breeze although ironically the stickies in RTE used him when he was in current affairs!

ha! i'd well believe it. poor old Pat - being used as a frontman for Marxists even though he wouldnt know a Das Kapital if it hit him in the face.

[netron]

Except there is the Cabinet document from March 1969 that says that they were planning to do just that by fomenting a split, and the other stuff in the book that says offers were being made before the trouble broke out on the grounds that people broke away from the leadership.
In the aftermath of August 1969, there was a decision to get help to the north regardless. And the book does not give the date for that shipment. It might well have been before the split became formalised.

might have to listen to the interview again, but i think you are right. seemed like the stickies got their hands on the first shipment at Ringsend.

not sure if the FFers even knew that they were dealing with the Officials. I'll have to buy the book i guess to find out.

[Simply]

Except there is the Cabinet document from March 1969 that says that they were planning to do just that by fomenting a split, and the other stuff in the book that says offers were being made before the trouble broke out on the grounds that people broke away from the leadership.
In the aftermath of August 1969, there was a decision to get help to the north regardless. And the book does not give the date for that shipment. It might well have been before the split became formalised.

Of course they would have been interested in fomenting a split.Jumping from that to conclude they caused it and ignited the war in the North is ridiculous..except it was a useful line in terms of self justification and political point scoring.

[Fr. Fahey]

might have to listen to the interview again, but i think you are right. seemed like the stickies got their hands on the first shipment at Ringsend.

not sure if the FFers even knew that they were dealing with the Officials. I'll have to buy the book i guess to find out.

Of course they did! Haughey had been Minister for Justice. They knew exactly who they were dealing with. If they wanted to get rid of Goulding they would not have been giving him money and weapons. Simple as that. Haughey et al wanted to get arms to whoever they thought could use them in north. Possibily one of the few genuine acts the man ever did!

[netron]

fair point. haughey was justice minister alright and would have had access to the intelligence.

[Garibaldy]

Of course they would have been interested in fomenting a split.Jumping from that to conclude they caused it and ignited the war in the North is ridiculous..except it was a useful line in terms of self justification and political point scoring.

I've never seen anyone suggest that FF caused the split or ignited the violence in the north. What they have suggested is that they allied themselves with dissident elements within the then-Republican Movement (as well as disgruntled ex-members), and that they helped them get established as they represented no threat to the south, unlike socialism. The book essentially confirms that. Nor did it stop in 69. Hence Haughey in the 1980s meeting RTE people facilitated by the current President to get the "nest of sticky vipers", among other things.

[Garibaldy]

Of course they did! Haughey had been Minister for Justice. They knew exactly who they were dealing with. If they wanted to get rid of Goulding they would not have been giving him money and weapons. Simple as that. Haughey et al wanted to get arms to whoever they thought could use them in north. Possibily one of the few genuine acts the man ever did!

Depends on the timing. As I say, if this was after August but before December, then there was no split. On top of that, we know they approached people who were loyal to the leadership thinking they weren't - people like Francie Donnelly and Johnnie White. So obviously they didn't know. Partly because a lot of people didn't know themselves. Just ask Adams and McGuinness.

[netron]

Depends on the timing. As I say, if this was after August but before December, then there was no split. On top of that, we know they approached people who were loyal to the leadership thinking they weren't - people like Francie Donnelly and Johnnie White. So obviously they didn't know. Partly because a lot of people didn't know themselves. Just ask Adams and McGuinness.

fair point - didnt McGuiness end up joining the Officials by accident at one stage? even he didnt know of the split at the time.

[Fr. Fahey]

Depends on the timing. As I say, if this was after August but before December, then there was no split. On top of that, we know they approached people who were loyal to the leadership thinking they weren't - people like Francie Donnelly and Johnnie White. So obviously they didn't know. Partly because a lot of people didn't know themselves. Just ask Adams and McGuinness.

Ringsend shipment was after split and money was going into account controlled by Goulding after split.


As for no-one claiming FF deliberately caused split that is exactly what Officials claimed. It is ridiculous to think that the state was terrified of a socialist revolution led by Anthony Couglan and Roy Johnston! Besides, they had two leading members of the 'left' who were touts.

And obviously when they were giving weapons they sought assurances that they would not be used in south. And bear in mind too that it was the left who were opposed to IRA actions in south like burning farm houses which was done under MacStiofains command area.

Republican movement was going nowhere prior to 1969.

[Garibaldy]

Ringsend shipment was after split and money was going into account controlled by Goulding after split.


As for no-one claiming FF deliberately caused split that is exactly what Officials claimed. It is ridiculous to think that the state was terrified of a socialist revolution led by Anthony Couglan and Roy Johnston! Besides, they had two leading members of the 'left' who were touts.

And obviously when they were giving weapons they sought assurances that they would not be used in south. And bear in mind too that it was the left who were opposed to IRA actions in south like burning farm houses which was done under MacStiofains command area.

Republican movement was going nowhere prior to 1969.

The claim was that FF exploited and exacerbated tensions and promoted the development of the Provos. Rather than that they caused the split all by themselves. I don't know what Coughland has to do with this seeing as he was not even a member. As for your theory about touts, the last time you said that they stopped weapons coming in through the touts, now you are saying this.

If you read the book, you will see that the burning of farm houses and foreign-owned property was taking place well beyond that area, and with central direction.