"The Lost Revolution: A History of the OIRA and Workers Party"

[Garibaldy]

What about the filth drinking in WP clubs and turning a blind eye to Official's "operations"?

What do you mean by return the Party to the forms and politics of the past? Surely if that was the case they would have joined the IRSM?

WP policy on the police was clear. On the basis that the terrorist violence from both sides was resulting in the murder of many innocent workers, and deepening the division of the working class, and therefore setting back the chance of a socialist republic instead of advancing it, The WP called for people to give any information they had on any paramilitaries to the police. There certainly were elements of the worst kind in the police. But there were also those who were trying to professionalise the police force, and move towards a fair and impartial police service.

As for the forms and politics of the past. The reason the Republican movement became The Workers' Party was because it learnt the lessons of history as revealed by the Bolshevik Revolution, and from socialist forces elsewhere. The working class needs a conscious and organised political force in order to defend its interests and ultimately seize power and reshape the economy and society along socialist lines. Turning away from the class-conscious party whether for reasons of opportunism or despair is a retrograde step.

[SevenStars]

As for the forms and politics of the past. The reason the Republican movement became The Workers' Party was because it learnt the lessons of history as revealed by the Bolshevik Revolution, and from socialist forces elsewhere. The working class needs a conscious and organised political force in order to defend its interests and ultimately seize power and reshape the economy and society along socialist lines. Turning away from the class-conscious party whether for reasons of opportunism or despair is a retrograde step.

So what exactly were/are these people advocating?

Also given the fact that presumably they themselves were in the WP/Offical IRA at the time any allegations they made would rebound on them?

Also I cant remember who said it but someone said clearly and rightly (I think it was an Italian...) that there will be no more October revolutions, trying simply to reinact Lenin's forumula in today's world wont work. Also the insights and experiance of Rosa Luxembourg, Chairman Moa, Chairman Gonazlo and the Italian experiances in the 60s and 70s shouldnt be overlooked.(But that is a whole other issue...).

[Garibaldy]

So what exactly were/are these people advocating?

Also given the fact that presumably they themselves were in the WP/Offical IRA at the time any allegations they made would rebound on them?

Also I cant remember who said it but someone said clearly and rightly (I think it was an Italian...) that there will be no more October revolutions, trying simply to reinact Lenin's forumula in today's world wont work. Also the insights and experiance of Rosa Luxembourg, Chairman Moa, Chairman Gonazlo and the Italian experiances in the 60s and 70s shouldnt be overlooked.(But that is a whole other issue...).

What was being advocated depended on who you were talking to. Mostly it was vague but suggesting a move towards nationalism. Only a few were members of The WP, although more had been members at some point.

The point is not to try and replicate October. The conditions for it were unique. However, it's clear that for the working class to have a major impact on politics consistently it needs a dedicated political party. That is all the more the case in parliamentary democracies. America proves it. So does the impact The WP was able to make before the betrayal of 1992.

[cactusflower]

So what exactly were/are these people advocating?

Also given the fact that presumably they themselves were in the WP/Offical IRA at the time any allegations they made would rebound on them?

Also I cant remember who said it but someone said clearly and rightly (I think it was an Italian...) that there will be no more October revolutions, trying simply to reinact Lenin's forumula in today's world wont work. Also the insights and experiance of Rosa Luxembourg, Chairman Moa, Chairman Gonazlo and the Italian experiances in the 60s and 70s shouldnt be overlooked.(But that is a whole other issue...).

There'll be no more October (or November or December) Revolutions if "revolutionaries " abandon the Marxist analysis of the State:

But there were also those who were trying to professionalise the police force, and move towards a fair and impartial police service.

[Garibaldy]

There'll be no more October (or November or December) Revolutions if "revolutionaries " abandon the Marxist analysis of the State:

Fair and impartial in terms of sectarianism. Not class.

[SevenStars]

Fair and impartial in terms of sectarianism. Not class.

Some would could say that you spitting on the memory of Irish Protestants who refused to ally themselves British Imperialism and capitalism in the occupied six counties.

The PIRA and INLA had protestant volunteers...can you name some UVF vols from an RC background?

[SevenStars]

WP policy on the police was clear. On the basis that the terrorist violence from both sides was resulting in the murder of many innocent workers, and deepening the division of the working class, and therefore setting back the chance of a socialist republic instead of advancing it, The WP called for people to give any information they had on any paramilitaries to the police. There certainly were elements of the worst kind in the police. But there were also those who were trying to professionalise the police force, and move towards a fair and impartial police service.
.

Yes but out of those killed by the British state officially (i.e. not including their death squads) only 52 per cent were directly involved in the conflict while as with the evil sectarian Provos 72 per cent of their victims were directly involved with the troubles...However they are "official" figures so I think most people can be certain that....

[cactusflower]

Fair and impartial in terms of sectarianism. Not class.

And class is the primary issue.

[Garibaldy]

Some would could say that you spitting on the memory of Irish Protestants who refused to ally themselves British Imperialism and capitalism in the occupied six counties.

The PIRA and INLA had protestant volunteers...can you name some UVF vols from an RC background?

I'm not really sure how arguing for a non-sectarian police force is spitting on the memory of anybody. It's entirely a progressive demand, whether it is made in Ireland, Bosnia or Iraq.

I'm not really sure how the absence or presence of UVF members from an RC background is supposed to detract or add to my argument about a non-sectarian police force. But as a point of information, the Sunday World has named several LVF members as being RC, at least in background.

[Garibaldy]

And class is the primary issue.

Absolutely. And in the context of the Troubles, the primary issue was to get the violence that was resulting in the deaths of innocent workers stopped.