"The Lost Revolution: A History of the OIRA and Workers Party"

[cactusflower]

I think you forget that bomb was targetting the leadership of a Loyalist death squad that had been carrying out indriscriminate violence against the nationalist/republican community. Look at what the French resistance did or the FLN.

Again (and yes I have a working class Dublin accent and if I had some other things might be different..but honestly ascendency types are creepy as f**k) as an Irish protestant I have never accounted sectarianism on my vists to the 6 counties with the loose Republican movement (SDLP types are another story).

The FLN was defeated militarily. Did the IRA model their campaign on the FLNs?

[Garibaldy]

While there is plenty we don't agree with I have only just found out that the Socialist Party and Workers Party voted for the GFA and the WSM abstained and am finding it hard to credit. The idea that it was going to bring permanent peace and an end to sectarianism is unbelievable.
Were there any "socialist" parties opposing the GFA / Constitutional changes ?

The SWP opposed it IIRC. The WP called for a Yes vote on the basis that it was essential to bring an end to the violence that had claimed so many ordinary workers, and that this was the best way of doing so. It also offered the return of local democracy, which would expose the right-wing nature of both unionism and nationalism (an analysis based on the notion of dialectics btw). This was despite grave reservations over the aspects that could entrench sectarianism. On the whole, the position was that the GFA would improve the lives of ordinary working people in the north, which it has done. It was the right decision to support it. As anyone who lives in the north will tell you.

[SevenStars]

I know plenty of people associated with the loose republican movement who are sectarian. So that doesn't really get us very far.

Well how do you define sectarian?

Was the CPI sectarian (which had an out of proporition to the population protestant membership from the beginning) when they disagreed with the WP's view of the Provos?

Were my protestant (and WP voting) parents sectarian when they opposed extradition and supported the hunger strikers?

So you agree with Eoghan Harris that the radicial tradition in the Irish Protestant community is basically self hatred?

[Garibaldy]

Well how do you define sectarian?

Was the CPI sectarian (which had an out of proporition to the population protestant membership from the beginning) when they disagreed with the WP's view of the Provos?

Were my protestant (and WP voting) parents sectarian when they opposed extradition and supported the hunger strikers?

So you agree with Eoghan Harris that the radicial tradition in the Irish Protestant community is basically self hatred?

I define sectarian politics as politics that seeks to represent one section of the Irish people in the north only. So those who claim to be the representatives of the catholic community, or their defenders, or the defenders of the nationalist working class, or whatever word is used. Likewise with protestants and unionists.

There is also a nastier element to sectarianism. Which is the open hatred of people based on religion, and condemning and attacking them for it. So that can be Loughlinisland or Kingsmill, or it can be throwing stones across a peaceline, or burning a church or whatever. It can also be shouting sectarian abuse, writing sectarian graffiti etc.

As for your dragging Harris into this, nothing I have said suggests that I think that in the slightest. Nothing.

[SevenStars]

As for your dragging Harris into this, nothing I have said suggests that I think that in the slightest. Nothing.

Okay....But the fact is that many working class and progressive protestants or people from protestant backgrounds were sympathic or supportive of the Provos...Why do you think that was if they were as sectarian as you say?

[SevenStars]

I define sectarian politics as politics that seeks to represent one section of the Irish people in the north only. So those who claim to be the representatives of the catholic community, or their defenders, or the defenders of the nationalist working class, or whatever word is used. Likewise with protestants and unionists.
.

But it was the nationalist working class that was being attacked by fascist death squads and the British state and it was the loyalist working class which was supporting those attacks and happily marrying itself to its own ruling class...As Templar Knight (a Unionist) pointed out correctly that there are and have been a good few protestant Republicans in the 6 counties (and likewise there have been RC Unionists)..Defending a working class community in revolt against a particulary brutal capitalist state is hardly a crime in my book.

[cactusflower]

There were far more people supportive in a general way of Irish independence and unification than there were supporters of the Provisions.

[Garibaldy]

Okay....But the fact is that many working class and progressive protestants or people from protestant backgrounds were sympathic or supportive of the Provos...Why do you think that was if they were as sectarian as you say?

Many? The numbers are tiny; statistically insignificant, even today. The Life and Times Study I think it is consistently shows 1% of Catholics voting DUP and 0% of protestants voting for PSF.

The CPI was opposed to provo violence throughout the troubles. Why the few who did support the provos did so I don't know. I suspect from a misplaced and immature leftism in most cases.

[SevenStars]

There were far more people supportive in a general way of Irish independence and unification than there were supporters of the Provisions.

You have too remember the black propaganda war waged against the Provos during the troubles.

[Garibaldy]

There were far more people supportive in a general way of Irish independence and unification than there were supporters of the Provisions.

That's of course true.