Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 17

Thread: The spirit of the nation of Ireland, 1907

  1. #1
    Politics.ie Newbie
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    83

    The spirit of the nation of Ireland, 1907

    In 1907 a French Catholic called L. Paul-Dubois wrote a 500-page book titled "Contemporary Ireland".
    The following is an abridgement of the section of the book titled "The Power of the Clergy: Its Cause".
    The complete book is downloadable at Archive.org.
    L. Paul-Dubois was an Irish nationalist sympathiser. I disagree with him on various points. What I most value about the paragraphs below is that they strengthen my belief that Unionists and Protestants were correct in their contention that Catholicism was at the heart and soul of the Irish Home Rule and Independence movement.

    **************************************************
    **************************************************


    No one can visit Ireland without being impressed by the intensity of Catholic belief there, and by the fervour of its outward manifestations. Watch the enormous crowds of people who fill the churches in the towns, the men as numerous as the women; see them all kneeling on the flagstones, without a sound or gesture, as though petrified in prayer! Go to early Mass on Sundays in Dublin and watch three or four priests simultaneously giving the Sacrament to throngs of communicants too great for the size of the churches. Observe in the country, above all in the West, the regular recitation of the Rosary in the family, the frequent practice of fasting two days before Communion, the "stations" held at Easter and Christmas in every hamlet. How can we fail to admire a piety so ardent and so simple? Let us at least recognise that of all European peoples Ireland is the most fundamentally religious, and that to her may most justly be applied, if ever it may be applied, the Divine saying : "Go, thy faith hath made thee whole!"

    Loving his religion, the Irish person loves his Church. His Church is the spiritual authority to whom he owes respect and obedience; the jewel which England has not been able to snatch from him, the only permanent organisation, the only national expression of present and of past Ireland. Here are reasons enough for love! Nothing could be more touching to see than the attachment which still exists, the respect, the confidence, the intimacy, between the priest and his parishioners. The parish priest, as one meets him in the small towns, with his high hat and sombre garb, his great, strong frame, and ruddy face, leaves a striking image in the mind. As he walks by, with his grave and keen-faced young curate, every hat is lifted, but he answers only with an amiable word addressed to each, for if he returned salutes his hat would very soon be worn out. He seems to be a king in his kingdom, affable, courteous, tolerant with non-Catholics, familiar with his flock, above all "popular". He is in truth the father of his people, and no doubt an authoritative enough father. He is the arbiter of their quarrels, the confidant of their secrets. To him they turn for advice. In return the people are ready to do him any service and to render him any homage. Of the priests there is no stiff haughtiness, no wall of stone separating them from their flock; they make themselves loved by their good grace, and their ruggedness at need. Withal they are generous, and full of life and spirit.

    Their strength lies in the faith and piety of Ireland, in that a whole nation believes, and practices its beliefs. Today that living and fervent Catholic faith, which is so different from the cold observance by the Anglo-Saxon, would seem, in truth, to have become a part of the race and of the nationality, so that the one cannot be distinguished from the other. Religion is in the blood of the nation of Ireland. It is a second nature, a hereditary and traditional instinct, which has no need to be reasoned in order to be profound. It has not, in fact, as a rule, reduced itself to reason, nor sought out a philosophical basis, as is indeed natural in a country in which education is behindhand and culture and the philosophic spirit are rare.

    Religion in Ireland has a close connection with the national life; the atmosphere of public opinion is charged with it; it intervenes in all social and political affairs. Ireland has always shown herself able to distinguish politics from religion, but, nonetheless, it is true that in no country is the moral ascendancy of the clergy so great. In religion and in morals their authority is indisputable and undisputed. In the matter of education they are sometimes criticised, but always obeyed. The Irish priest is not merely the spiritual shepherd, he is the guide and counsellor in temporal affairs. The temporal power of the Irish clergy may be traced to two principal causes, namely the essentially religious character of the nation, and the historical fact that the priest has been for centuries the sole guide of the Irish people. Three centuries of persecution have but attached Ireland more deeply to the Catholic faith, and her fidelity to it is all the more meritorious, if indeed we may not say heroic, for the fact. The facts of history have made the priest a leader, and often the sole leader, of the people. The Irish nation could have had, like others, its national aristocracy, its cultivated middle class, if the English conquest had not checked the natural course of development of the country. In the eighteenth century, when the perfecting of the conquest was followed by the organisation of oppression, the nation of Ireland had no longer either an aristocracy (for the land was in the hands of English and Protestant landlords) nor a middle class (for the middle class had been anihilated or had fled). The only leaders left, endowed at once with education and with the confidence of the people, were the clergy.

    Consider the situation even to-day as it is in the country districts. In the West the priest is usually the only person in the village who has any education. He is, in the four provinces, the only capable counsellor, the only leader who is obeyed. The sizeable farmers and the village shopkeepers lack education and authority. As for the politicians the people make use of them, but appraise them at what they are worth. The landlord? More often than not he has not a common sentiment with the people, even if he be a Catholic. In the towns the situation is a little different, but the same historical causes give the clergy an exceptional influence: the near absence of a middle class possessed of the training, independence, and culture necessary to fit it for its intellectual and social role. A new bourgeoisie is no doubt beginning to form itself on the ruins of the old, but secondary education is so inadequate and behindhand, and higher education still so cruelly defective, that among the Catholics of Ireland, even among the liberal classes, there are but few to be found who possess any real culture. We find, on the contrary, a certain form of intellectual apathy very widespread, a distaste for mental effort, a certain absence of the critical sense, a lack of individual judgment. But the "Papists"are beginning to claim their rights, and to make themselves and their religion respected. Education is improving; the middle class is growing, and with it the liberal and cultured nucleus. As these forces become stronger, the causes of the temporal supremacy of the clergy will decrease.

    Generally speaking, we may call the influence of the clergy during the nineteenth century a conservative and a moderating influence, apter to restrain evil than to forward good, apter to check the feet of their flock on the downward rather than to urge them along the upward path. A conservative power does not easily become a worker in the cause of progress. If the Irish clergy have succeeded admirably in preserving the virtue and piety of their people, they have not had as much success in that other task, with its difficulties of quite another kind, the intellectual and social regeneration of Ireland. The great Irish Seminary of Maynooth has always sent out very saintly priests. A priest left the seminary with an excellent ecclesiastical education, but his general knowledge was narrow and incomplete. He was deficient in those qualities which are developed by a good classical and scientific education, and lacked that indefinable thing which, according to the Bishop of Limerick, is "not knowledge but culture." Once installed and isolated in his country presbytery, the priest often showed very little intellectual activity and little taste for study, his library was poor and his pen unfruitful, and he had little success in the training of mind and character of himself or of his flock. But here we should testify also to the progress which Maynooth has realised during the last twenty years, in the way of classical and scientific study, the results of which must in the end have an influence on the Irish clergy in the sphere of social action. The standard of study has been raised and the number of professors increased. Will the new generation of clergy succeed in their work, and will they be able to restore to Ireland, after the bankruptcy of Protestantism, and so to the greater glory of Catholicism, something of that splendour which the monks had lent to her civilisation in the sixth and seventh centuries? In the answer to that question lies the secret of the future.

  2. #2
    Politics.ie Regular Catalpa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Dublin West
    Posts
    27,451

    Are suggesting that if these people were not Catholics they would not have been Nationalists?

    I would venture that if all of Ireland had been of one Religion, Catholic or Protestant, that the National Movement would have been of greater strength than otherwise.
    Europa Conventus Delenda Est

  3. #3
    Politics.ie Newbie
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    83

    Quote Originally Posted by Catalpa View Post
    Are suggesting that if these people were not Catholics they would not have been Nationalists?
    I'm not suggesting anything about any hyopthetical world disconnected from reality, where one can imagine anything that suits one's fancy. I'm presenting L. Paul-Dubois words as an effort at depicting the real world only.

  4. #4
    Nem
    Nem is offline
    Politics.ie Regular
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    1,830

    Quote Originally Posted by MacAvoydgeen View Post
    I'm presenting L. Paul-Dubois words as an effort at depicting the real world only.
    And thanks for doing that. Greatly appreciated. Would it be possible for you to provide the link to the book on archive.org? I tried looking for it but could not find it.

    One issue is that I can't really see your thesis coming out of the text. Could you possibly highlight the aspects that support your argument and maybe also post sections of the text that you disagree with and tell us why? Many thanks.
    "The thing that always annoyed me about traditional Irish historiography was the paradox of its Anglocentrism. People are now prepared, I think, to confront the possibility that many Irish problems are, in a sense, indigenous to the Irish situation." Roy Foster (1989).

  5. #5
    Politics.ie Regular Keith-M's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    15,140

    Quote Originally Posted by Catalpa View Post
    Are suggesting that if these people were not Catholics they would not have been Nationalists?

    I would venture that if all of Ireland had been of one Religion, Catholic or Protestant, that the National Movement would have been of greater strength than otherwise.

    I totally disagree. If Ireland had become Anglican (which was a very close call at one point) I don't believe the political differences with the rest of the U.K. would have been as pronounced. Grattan's Parliament would have been far more representative. The interest in Catholic Emancipation and the Land League (which fuelled nationalism) would have been miniscule.

    It is no coincidence that partition is largely based on religeous divisions. Without these, we would still be in the U.K. and prrobably with a single political entity on the island with the same degreee of autonomy as Scotland.
    The Mahon Tribunal found Olivia Mitchell to have received an inappropriate payment from Frank Dunlop at the time of the 1992 Election. F.G. Gael has taken no action against her.

  6. #6
    Politics.ie Regular DeGaulle 2.0's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Baile Átha Cliath
    Posts
    2,144

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith-M View Post
    I totally disagree. If Ireland had become Anglican (which was a very close call at one point) I don't believe the political differences with the rest of the U.K. would have been as pronounced. Grattan's Parliament would have been far more representative. The interest in Catholic Emancipation and the Land League (which fuelled nationalism) would have been miniscule.

    It is no coincidence that partition is largely based on religeous divisions. Without these, we would still be in the U.K. and prrobably with a single political entity on the island with the same degreee of autonomy as Scotland.

    At what point did Ireland almost become Anglican?
    Vive le Québec libre ! Ag beathú na dtochardán ón mbliain 2007.

  7. #7
    Nem
    Nem is offline
    Politics.ie Regular
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    1,830

    Quote Originally Posted by DeGaulle 2.0 View Post
    At what point did Ireland almost become Anglican?
    I presume he means the period of the Protestant Ascendancy.

    There is some difficulty with Keith's argument if this is the case. Jonathan Swift's writings for instance show clear discrepancies with Westminster policy. Considering Ireland was for all intends and purposes a colony in the same context as the North American settlements.
    "The thing that always annoyed me about traditional Irish historiography was the paradox of its Anglocentrism. People are now prepared, I think, to confront the possibility that many Irish problems are, in a sense, indigenous to the Irish situation." Roy Foster (1989).

  8. #8
    Politics.ie Regular Joseph Emmet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    California/USA
    Posts
    580

    Does no one consider the economic policies of England appropriate to the discussion? The English were constantly adding new tariffs in order to protect goods produced or grown in England. In addition goods had to be shipped in English ships or approved ships. Trade was totally controlled by the English parliament. All these measures kept the Irish from developing their own economy, therefore complete dependence on the English. This IMHO is as important a factor as religion. This was one of the reasons that led to the American revolution.
    [FONT="Comic Sans MS"][COLOR="Green"]
    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
    Pep Without Purpose Is Piffle![/COLOR][/FONT]
    To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

  9. #9
    Politics.ie Regular
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Swinford
    Posts
    625

    Religion or not, Ireland always had that fervor of simply 'not being English.'
    Catholicism was a simple line in the sand.
    Ireland is free for another day.

  10. #10
    Politics.ie Newbie
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    83

    Quote Originally Posted by Nem View Post
    I can't really see your thesis coming out of the text.
    The text asserts "Catholic faith... would seem, in truth, to have become a part of the race and of the nationality, so that the one cannot be distinguished from the other." The text provides quite a good number of items of concrete evidence to back up that assertion. But nobody should find it convincing all on its own -- I said earlier that it strengthened the view that I had formed earlier from other sources. As an instance of another source, the Home Rule movement was first formed in 1870. It's founder and head was Isaac Butt, who was a Protestant. Yet as early as 1871 at Protestant political meetings on The Twelfth of July, 1871, in Cavan, Dublin, London, and probably elsewhere, people were reciting the slogan that Home Rule would be Rome Rule. See A Contemporary Newspaper Report. Why would an organisation founded and headed by a Protestant be feared to usher in Rome Rule? Because the Catholic faith was an inevitable part of the nationality.

    By the way and moving sideways, another assertion by L. Paul-Dubois is when he's talking about the better educated Catholics of 1907 he says: "we find a certain form of intellectual apathy very widespread, a distaste for mental effort, a certain absence of the critical sense, a lack of individual judgment." I'm inclined to believe him. But he doesn't deliver much concrete evidence to support his assertion. He mentions that none of the notable Catholic philosophers of the day were Irish; and English Catholics were far more visible that Irish ones in the realm of Catholic thought and writings. But that's not sufficient evidence for his broader statement, and he left me hungering for more evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nem View Post
    Would it be possible for you to provide the link to the book on archive.org?
    Here is the book in the DjVu fileformat (17 megabytes):
    http://ia311525.us.archive.org/0/ite...0pauluoft.djvu
    The DjVu fileformat is much better than the PDF fileformat (for this particular book at least).

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. The spirit of the nation of Ireland, 1931
    By MacAvoydgeen in forum History
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 13th July 2009, 02:30 AM
  2. Spirit of Ireland promise prosperity for West
    By fiannafailure in forum Connacht
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 12th June 2009, 02:52 PM
  3. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12th May 2009, 04:24 PM
  4. 17 October 1907
    By Catalpa in forum History
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 19th October 2007, 10:06 AM