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Thread: Ireland- not a "Celtic" country. George Washington University Professor

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    Politics.ie Regular thedudeinthehat's Avatar
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    Ireland- not a "Celtic" country. George Washington University Professor

    Interesting reading in the following series of lecturers from an American professor who studies Irish anthropolgy and archaeology. http://www.rbfilm.com/courses_pdf/UT129.pdf


    Prof Susan A. Johnston discusses in depth the idea of the Celts, or Celtic peoples, and shows how much the theories of Celtic Civilisation have evolved in the last few decades- even since I studied it at university.

    Back then there was a current of theory which suggested that a Celtic peoples had migrated to Ireland and thus we had a Celtic tradition.

    Prof Johnston however excellenty takes apart the myths of the idea of Celtic Ireland on a number of levels- lingustically, documentary and archaeological evidence.

    Of relevance,

    1. Ireland was/ is not a Celtic country. That term itself was assigned to Ireland in the eighteenth century by a Welsh linguist- and was seized by the fledgling Irish nationalist movement as evidence of an us and them heritage (us Celtic- them British/Roman)

    2. The historical documents/evidence suggest that the true Celts were limited to an area of Gaul, the Rhine, Eastern Europe and western Turkey. This can be proven by a combination of historical evidence/archaeological finds/art and languages/ and the peoples own myths/foundation stories.

    3. Ireland and Britain (collectively the British isles in ancient sources) were instead an Iron age culture- which adapted and acquired La Tene (later Celtic) art. A lack of wealthy burial sites, evidence of Celtic existence leads Prof Johnston to observe that rather like the wealthy Californias who become au fait in all things European, they may acquire pieces of European design, but cannot be called Celtic. She concludes that the knowledge of Celtic culture by ancient Irelands wealthy trading elites, should not be confused with a widespread Celtic people/culture exisiting in Ireland. Instead Prof Johnston points out that throughout Iron age Europe, dominat cultures influenced each other- so that parts of Gaul adapted Roman elements, parts of Ireland adapted Celtic elements from trade, and minor settlements.

    4. Prof Johnston (and by association me) warn that this is not to deny those who claim to "be Celtic", or to have "Celtic blood" in places like Scotland and Ireland, the right to this claim. However she is making the point that these people need to understand what they are claiming heritage from. That would be a core Celtic culture in Gaul/Germany/Switz. With decreasing circles of Celticness as it would later be defined. The fact that the origins of this widely accepted strand of anthropology were from British academics led to virulent and over the top attacks by "Celtic" nationalists. I agree with Johnston, we need to of course accept that people can claim Celticness. But is a modern label, that would have meant nothing to the Iron Age peoples of the time. Funnily enough, she points out that England- of all the British Isles nations, has the richest tradition of Celtic art, archaeology, and historicaly recorded existence. I think these contradictions should be acknowledged by the anti-immigration heads out there who claim that there is such a thing as pure Irish- Celtic blood. Prof Johnston says such claims do not stand up to the evidence- great series of lectures- well worth downloading...
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    Politics.ie Regular thedudeinthehat's Avatar
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    here is the most relevant passage before people start asking for quotes-

    This latter point was made in the 1990s in several books, most famously by
    archaeologists Simon James and John Collis, and anthropologist Malcolm
    Chapman. The argument made by them and others is basically the one that
    has been made in this course—that, in ancient terms, the Celts as we think of
    them never really existed. There was no unified, single culture that characterized
    all of the peoples of the Iron Age, and to that extent it is inaccurate to
    use a single term, Celts, for them. At the same time, as long as we are very
    careful to remind ourselves that we are never talking about a single culture,
    occasionally substituting “Celtic” for “Iron Age” is perfectly reasonable. This
    point seems relatively benign, and yet the firestorm that was ignited when
    these books came out was truly remarkable. James, in particular, was in
    essence accused of racism, and it was implied that his desire to “erase” the
    Celts from history stemmed from his English nationality. At its most extreme,
    their work was equated with modern genocide. Even some more recent
    books that seek either to go back to the old ideas of ethnic homogeneity or
    perhaps simply to make money on the popular image of the Celts, ridicule the
    more nuanced and sophisticated approach to history and archaeology of the
    Iron Age. It should be obvious that I think this is well over the top. It’s clear to
    me that the people who actually lived in the Iron Age would have been totally
    confused by our modern usage of “Celt,” and as an archaeologist, I see it as
    my job to represent them in the most accurate way that I can.
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    Interesting area this and I know that 'Celt' is a term derived from a word imposed on people who had travelled across Europe and spread into Ireland. I think the word 'Keltoi' was used by Greek scribes.

    I wouldn't be at all surprised if on examination of DNA once Norse, Saxon, and other strands are edited out of an anthroplogical study based on hard science that we find there's an ancient link to not just mittelEurope but even further east than that

    Going back to current knowledge of migratory patterns for humans in general I suspect that we may find that ourselves and people like the Basques may be related via a core movement of peoples from Persia/ or possibly even India after the first wave of human expansion from the Equator belt.

    It would explain a few things.

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    Politics.ie Regular thedudeinthehat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Con O'Sullivan View Post
    Interesting area this and I know that 'Celt' is a term derived from a word imposed on people who had travelled across Europe and spread into Ireland. I think the word 'Keltoi' was used by Greek scribes.

    I wouldn't be at all surprised if on examination of DNA once Norse, Saxon, and other strands are edited out of an anthroplogical study based on hard science that we find there's an ancient link to not just mittelEurope but even further east than that

    Going back to current knowledge of migratory patterns for humans in general I suspect that we may find that ourselves and people like the Basques may be related via a core movement of peoples from Persia/ or possibly even India after the first wave of human expansion from the Equator belt.

    It would explain a few things.

    Yes your correct about the term Keltoi with a K. That was applied to the area I mentioned above, and at its furthest extreme, extended to the straits of Gibraltar (pillars of Hercules) in the West and the modern day Turkish area of Gallicia. Interestingly, the theory you mention above, of migrating peoples is now being seriously questioned. If migration took place in Ireland, it was prior to the Iron Age. No large scale Celtic migration took place in Ireland, and the ancient scholars constantly emphasise that the British Isles were beyond the Celtic peoples. We were a people onto ourselves, who would come into contact with core Roman/Celtic peoples through trade.

    The pdf link ridicules the ideas of Braveheart and the Irish as a warrior tribe. Instead she emphasises how homosexuality and womens rights were what helped the Celts stand out against Roman/Greek norms.

    I dont know how the Catholic Church must have felt about all that as they inherited the old Roman empire and its borders...

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    Quote Originally Posted by imported_Déise View Post
    Nothing really new here. You should watch this.
    RTÉ Television - Blood of the Irish

    Interestingly Irish people originally seem to have come from North Spain, which fits with Irish mythology.
    Milesians (Irish) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Míl Espáine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Its new in the sense that we market ourselves as the "Celtic Nation" without comparison.
    Its interesting that England has the greatest Celtic tradition.

    Also the programme Blood of the Irish makes the error of assuming the people on the west coast are the longest resident in Ireland, thereby linking with the Basques. Other theories suggest a much further East origin for the Irish peoples- mainly the fertile crescent.....

    Its a romantic notion to highlight the Basques (some sort of rebel notions)
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    Politics.ie Member FutureTaoiseach's Avatar
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    Prefer "Gaelic" anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FutureTaoiseach View Post
    Prefer "Gaelic" anyway.
    thats even more recent- but I like this game

    How about - New Irish..y?
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    It seems nothing new, to be honest. Academics tend to build strawmen that they can easily knock down so as to make their ''theories'' appear more important and groundbreaking than they actually are. It's poor form really.

    Although someone should tell Enda 'I'm a Catholic' Kenny that we don't have a 'Celtic and Christian nation'.
    Signature removed as it breached the signature rules

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    Quote Originally Posted by imported_Déise View Post
    Well if it brings tourists, and boosts our sales of swirly jewellry to Spanish students here in the summer (they loves the spirals them spaniards) I say call ourselves Celtic.
    Yeh no doubt, lets milk it.

    But I'd hate to meet a real Celt from long ago- and him to see us pimping out his peoples- or the true ancient Irish, from 2000 years ago, who are anti Europe like their descendents, and hate being labeled Celt or European...

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    Quote Originally Posted by imported_Déise View Post
    Its just logical that the people in the Wesht are longest settled here. There was no Connaught plantation.

    Of course if we go back far enough we came from Africa. I doubt we came via the fertile cresent as we are Indo-European rather than semitic like the Arabs.

    Irish is an Indo-European language
    Indo European was born in the fertile crescent tho!!!!
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