Michael Collins: A Reappraisal

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

You can't know much about the period in question if you don't recognise the instructions but that much was clear from your first post on the topic. But the original instructions can be seen in UCD archives and are photographed in Diarmuid Ferriter's book on de Valera, they are also on the Dáil records for the Treaty debates themselves which can be accessed on the interwebs.

I don't carry an exact record of documents dating from the period that is true but then I also know for example that if one were to go simply by the official documentation and not examine a sequence of events around them then future generations would assume for example that the UK Attorney General's legal advice to Cabinet on the proposed invasion of Iraq was kosher and most intelligent people now would recognise that as hghly dubious.

Read the official records on Truman choosing to drop the atom bomb on two cities filled with civilians in world war two and you'd start to believe he was right.

I find it intriguing politically and diplomatically that De Valera would fear internment or a trap so much that he would send his rival to gain all the kudos attached to a very successful agreement without the temptation of knowing also that he could hand Collins for coming back with anything less.

There is a tendency to deify De Valera in certain quarters but there is no doubting he was a highly political animal and given his total surrender of Irish social affairs to outside influences in subsequent times I have some doubts about him as the unstinting martyr.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Catalpa

No President De Valera was the head of State and the buck stopped with him.

Obviously he could not spend two months of his time flitting back and forth between Dublin and London at a time like that.+ if the negotiations broke down what was to stop the British interning all the Delegates on the spot if hostilities were going to be renewed?

No Dev was quite correct to stay in Dublin - the rug was pulled from under him though.

Why not? It was after all THE issue of the day. What was more important and how likely was it that the British would issue an invitation and safe conduct as per usual between nations if they intended to waste time talking for weeks and then intern the participants? Wouldn't they have known the likely reaction to that from nationalists and from observers internationally?

I find it extraordinary that such high level talks would take place in such circumstances with the leader of the breakaway movement sitting back in Ireland and hoping his delegates would do a decent job. I just find that so politically naive that I have trouble avoiding De Valera's possible motives for hanging Collins out to dry.

[Cogadh]

I don't carry an exact record of documents dating from the period that is true but then I also know for example that if one were to go simply by the official documentation and not examine a sequence of events around them then future generations would assume for example that the UK Attorney General's legal advice to Cabinet on the proposed invasion of Iraq was kosher and most intelligent people now would recognise that as hghly dubious.

Read the official records on Truman choosing to drop the atom bomb on two cities filled with civilians in world war two and you'd start to believe he was right.

I find it intriguing politically and diplomatically that De Valera would fear internment or a trap so much that he would send his rival to gain all the kudos attached to a very successful agreement without the temptation of knowing also that he could hand Collins for coming back with anything less.

There is a tendency to deify De Valera in certain quarters but there is no doubting he was a highly political animal and given his total surrender of Irish social affairs to outside influences in subsequent times I have some doubts about him as the unstinting martyr.

Holy jebus, people deify de Valera? That really is beyond a joke. You know that just reads like a testament to your own idiocy. It would have been far more worthwhile (and briefer) for you to simply have typed 'I am an idiot'. But anyway I digress...

[vista]

Dev had his c. l2 months or more hob nobbing in America. Where in Gods name did he get the money to stay in the Waldorf Astoria only from rich American benefactors. Money for Ireland indeed! Collins was ordered by Dev to go to London. . He knew they had to sighn and he was too cowardly to face facts. Collins did not want more suffering in Ireland. Arthur Griffith and Collins must be turning in their grave when they look down on their beloved Eire today.

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Holy jebus, people deify de Valera? That really is beyond a joke. You know that just reads like a testament to your own idiocy. It would have been far more worthwhile (and briefer) for you to simply have typed 'I am an idiot'. But anyway I digress...

Yes it was something of a digression- from reasoned debate to aimless insult. I will leave it to others to decide on our relative idiocy level.

[Tiernanator]

To my knowledge Collins is viewed from misguided, traitor, hero, and pragmatist. Some idolize him, some berate him, some would like to see his memory thrown and left in the dustbin of history...

But have attitudes really changed. Is Collins now accepted, do FF and SF now regard Collins as a real patriot, have they lost their hatred for Collins achievements, was Collins right?

Sinn Féin view Collins as a product of his time. We think he made the wrong choice generally hence no Michael Collins SF cumann. However many of us in the party do not view Collins as a traitor,rather he was just one a long line of Irish people who swallowed the British line. Cue for anti-GFA republicans to say Sinn Féin has now done the same. Perhaps we have. He was definitely wrong to turn British guns on his fellow republicans and he was wrong to believe that the Free State could be a stepping stone to the republic.

However most republicans of my variety do not have the same knee-jerk hatred of Collins that many FF people I know seem to have. Mind you FG hate Liam Lynch with nearly the same depth of feeling. Although to be honest I have met FF people who do not feel hatred or antagonism towards Collins. Maybe it is time for us to honour all of Ireland's sons and daughters who died in the struggle for independence, due to England's interventions in Irish affairs. In my opinion they were all victims of England's colonial rule of our country regardless of how they met their deaths. It is sad when I read FG posters on here making fun about the massacre of Ballyseedy. It is also sad when people blindly condemn Michael Collins. I am not one of them and I would hope other Sinn Féin and FF people share similar views to me.

[Rocky]

Sinn Féin view Collins as a product of his time. We think he made the wrong choice generally hence no Michael Collins SF cumann. However many of us in the party do not view Collins as a traitor,rather he was just one a long line of Irish people who swallowed the British line. Cue for anti-GFA republicans to say Sinn Féin has now done the same. Perhaps we have. He was definitely wrong to turn British guns on his fellow republicans and he was wrong to believe that the Free State could be a stepping stone to the republic.

However most republicans of my variety do not have the same knee-jerk hatred of Collins that many FF people I know seem to have. Mind you FG hate Liam Lynch with nearly the same depth of feeling. Although to be honest I have met FF people who do not feel hatred or antagonism towards Collins. Maybe it is time for us to honour all of Ireland's sons and daughters who died in the struggle for independence, due to England's interventions in Irish affairs. In my opinion they were all victims of England's colonial rule of our country regardless of how they met their deaths. It is sad when I read FG posters on here making fun about the massacre of Ballyseedy. It is also sad when people blindly condemn Michael Collins. I am not one of them and I would hope other Sinn Féin and FF people share similar views to me.

I have never come across any hatred of Lynch in FG, I never come across any strong feelings towards Lynch in any way. Maybe old man in the South-West might hate him, but beyond no one else really thinks that much about him. I have no real hatred of Lynch, of course I think he was wrong to help start the civil war and wrong to keep it going when it was clear the irregulars had lost, but I do respect what he did before that and I don't by any means hate him.

On the issue of Dev setting Collins up, John M. Regan in the Irish Counter Revolution, puts forward a very strong detailed argument arguing that Dev did. Now obviously I can't read the minds of men that were dead before I was born, but as I said Regan does put forward a good argument and there was definitely a political battle going on at time between them.

[Cogadh]

Yes it was something of a digression- from reasoned debate to aimless insult. I will leave it to others to decide on our relative idiocy level.

Reasoned debate, my friend, depends on facts and a relative knowledge of the subject at hand, two things you have already shown yourself to be deficient in.

Ffs you are claiming that the greatest villain in 20th Century Irish history among certain groups (mainly your kind: idiots) is 'deified', even in his electoral hey day you were as likely to find that people would sooner spit at you than hear his name mentioned, even people who were supposedly on his 'side' of the civil war divide.

As for the poster who cited John Regan's book, perhaps he/she should go back and reread what Regan's thesis actually is because your biased summary of it, doesn't do it justice.

As for this supposed 'political battle' that was going on between Collins and de Valera, de Valera was far fom the only one capable of being a 'political animal' as Collins was fully capable of looking after himself and indeed did, using the IRB as his own personal fiefdom for example. There is a tendency for people to believe that de Valera was the evil political mastermind and Collins the wide eyed choir boy free from all politics who walked into de Valera's 'trap'. This is nonsense, quite frankly, and those who believe such things should perhaps look beyond Hollywood films for an understanding of history at this time.

[TheDon]

Yes, Collins did sign the Anglo-Irish Treaty and yes he did view it 'as a stepping stone' towards independence and yes he did fear that it was as 'signing his own death warrant'.
He knew, (a) that he and his comrades could not fight the might of the British Empire (as it was) for much longer and (b) he knew that the majority of Irish people did not want and would not support futher war.
Collins wanted to be involved in an Ireland that had to move away from violence and move forward to a democratic republic.
However, he did fear the extremist elements in Ireland who, at any cost, wanted to continue the fight.
De Valera sided with these extremists, e.g Austin Stack, because he knew that these extremists (psychopaths) viewed the Treaty as an act of treason. He feared for his own life.
These extremists wanted to maintain a cloak of fear among the ordinary people and they had nothing positive to contribute to the new Ireland at that time

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

Reasoned debate, my friend, depends on facts and a relative knowledge of the subject at hand, two things you have already shown yourself to be deficient in.

Ffs you are claiming that the greatest villain in 20th Century Irish history among certain groups (mainly your kind: idiots) is 'deified', even in his electoral hey day you were as likely to find that people would sooner spit at you than hear his name mentioned, even people who were supposedly on his 'side' of the civil war divide.

As for the poster who cited John Regan's book, perhaps he/she should go back and reread what Regan's thesis actually is because your biased summary of it, doesn't do it justice.

As for this supposed 'political battle' that was going on between Collins and de Valera, de Valera was far fom the only one capable of being a 'political animal' as Collins was fully capable of looking after himself and indeed did, using the IRB as his own personal fiefdom for example. There is a tendency for people to believe that de Valera was the evil political mastermind and Collins the wide eyed choir boy free from all politics who walked into de Valera's 'trap'. This is nonsense, quite frankly, and those who believe such things should perhaps look beyond Hollywood films for an understanding of history at this time.

No-one has claimed Collins was a wide-eyed choir boy. You seem to have a habit of putting words in other's mouths and then attacking the statement you have attributed to others. Thats an interesting technique but probably better off in an evangelical thread.

Don't patronise me by referring to me as your 'friend'- I don't know you. I'd rather debate a subject than allow it to drop into meaningless insult as you seem to prefer. You are having trouble telling your own assertions apart from facts or does your ego assume anything you say must be historically accurate because you happened to say it?

I think you are something of a bluffer.