Michael Collins: A Reappraisal

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

I'm not sure how widely this is known but when Collins was in London negotiating the treaty and fully aware that Dev was sitting back in Ireland waiting to condemn him for whatever he agreed, he went and had dinner at Churchill's London house.

Apparently they got on personally very well, Collins showing Churchill the wanted poster featuring a reward for information leading to Collins' capture at £50 or so and Churchill digging around until he found a copy he'd kept of the wanted poster the Boers had put out in South Africa when he was on the run as an escaped POW during that conflict.

The reward for Churchill was the equivalent of £5.00 so there were a few jokes about 'inflation' over dinner.

Churchill appeared to have a high regard for Collins as noted in his sincere expressions of sadness when news of Beal Na Blath filtered through London. This is all gained from Roy Jenkins' excellent biography on Churchill.

We know Devalera set Collins up-as did Collins with his 'signing my own death warrant' comment at the signing of the Treaty.

The question that intrigues me is-if things has been different and Collins got rid of Devalera, who was a bit too much of the aristo and had a thoroughly daft romantic view of a good Catlick Ireland with the simple peasants dancing for his amusement at the crossroards and all that cod nonsense- how would Ireland have been socially?

Would Collins have cowtowed to the Catholic church in the same way as a leader that the Fianna Failers did? IE, securing social freedom from one foreign oppressor only to hand it over to another bunch of Colonels in black uniforms who took their orders from Rome rather than London?

We'll never know. But relations at high level between London and Dublin might well have been better under Collins than DeValera strangely enough...

[blinding]

I'm not sure how widely this is known but when Collins was in London negotiating the treaty and fully aware that Dev was sitting back in Ireland waiting to condemn him for whatever he agreed, he went and had dinner at Churchill's London house.

Apparently they got on personally very well, Collins showing Churchill the wanted poster featuring a reward for information leading to Collins' capture at £50 or so and Churchill digging around until he found a copy he'd kept of the wanted poster the Boers had put out in South Africa when he was on the run as an escaped POW during that conflict.

The reward for Churchill was the equivalent of £5.00 so there were a few jokes about 'inflation' over dinner.

Churchill appeared to have a high regard for Collins as noted in his sincere expressions of sadness when news of Beal Na Blath filtered through London. This is all gained from Roy Jenkins' excellent biography on Churchill.

We know Devalera set Collins up-as did Collins with his 'signing my own death warrant' comment at the signing of the Treaty.

The question that intrigues me is-if things has been different and Collins got rid of Devalera, who was a bit too much of the aristo and had a thoroughly daft romantic view of a good Catlick Ireland with the simple peasants dancing for his amusement at the crossroards and all that cod nonsense- how would Ireland have been socially?

Would Collins have cowtowed to the Catholic church in the same way as a leader that the Fianna Failers did? IE, securing social freedom from one foreign oppressor only to hand it over to another bunch of Colonels in black uniforms who took their orders from Rome rather than London?

We'll never know. But relations at high level between London and Dublin might well have been better under Collins than DeValera strangely enough...

Interesting idea but just another one of those we will never know.

[Murph]

Collins took a masive gamble and lost. Had he and others on the opposing side managed to avoid civil war - well just imagine how much things would be different now.

The events in the north of the last week probably wouldnt have happened.

Was he really misguided to believe the treaty was a stepping stone to total independence? doesnt the current strategy of mainsteam republicanism involve the belief that the peace process and the GFA are a stepping stone to national unity?

[Cogadh]

I once read, can't remember where and it seems to be a little known fact so it must be true, that it was de Valera himself who invented aids in the 1930s. He, apparently, saw it as a way to stop premarital sex and as a way to get the 'gays' while he was at it, thus cementing Catholic hegemony in the Free State. Apparently, before his death in 1922, Michael Collins was already working on a cure (he being able to see into the future), however before he was fully able to develop his cure, he was killed. It's a also little known fact that apparently, the military genuis that he was, thought running around like a headless chicken, when people were trying to shoot you, was sound military tactics.

[5intheface]

Collins can be moulded into whatever version of history the idividual desires, here's mine;

[Catalpa]

I'm not sure how widely this is known but when Collins was in London negotiating the treaty and fully aware that Dev was sitting back in Ireland waiting to condemn him for whatever he agreed, he went and had dinner at Churchill's London house.

Apparently they got on personally very well, Collins showing Churchill the wanted poster featuring a reward for information leading to Collins' capture at £50 or so and Churchill digging around until he found a copy he'd kept of the wanted poster the Boers had put out in South Africa when he was on the run as an escaped POW during that conflict.

The reward for Churchill was the equivalent of £5.00 so there were a few jokes about 'inflation' over dinner.

Churchill appeared to have a high regard for Collins as noted in his sincere expressions of sadness when news of Beal Na Blath filtered through London. This is all gained from Roy Jenkins' excellent biography on Churchill.

We know Devalera set Collins up-as did Collins with his 'signing my own death warrant' comment at the signing of the Treaty.

The question that intrigues me is-if things has been different and Collins got rid of Devalera, who was a bit too much of the aristo and had a thoroughly daft romantic view of a good Catlick Ireland with the simple peasants dancing for his amusement at the crossroards and all that cod nonsense- how would Ireland have been socially?

Would Collins have cowtowed to the Catholic church in the same way as a leader that the Fianna Failers did? IE, securing social freedom from one foreign oppressor only to hand it over to another bunch of Colonels in black uniforms who took their orders from Rome rather than London?

We'll never know. But relations at high level between London and Dublin might well have been better under Collins than DeValera strangely enough...

Er Captain how exactly did Dev 'set Collins up'?

Collins et al signed the Treaty against the specific instructions they had been given by the President prior to departure to sign nothing until the final document hadmet with full Cabinet approval.

Collins and the others broke their oaths to the Republic and also acted in such a manner that any political leader would have clear grounds for dismissing them from Office.

see this from my Blog:

7 October 1921: On this day President Eamon De Valera issued his secret instructions to the plenipotentiaries he had picked to conduct negotiations with the British Government in London. He informed them that:

(1) The Plenipotentiaries have full powers as defined in their credentials.

(2) It is understood however that before decisions are finally reached on the main questions that a despatch notifying the intention of making these decisions will be sent to the Members of the Cabinet in Dublin and that a reply will be awaited by the Plenipotentiaries before the final decision is made.

(3) It is also understood that the complete text of the draft treaty about to be signed will be similarly submitted to Dublin and reply awaited.

(4) In case of break the text of final proposals from our side will be similarly submitted.

(5) It is understood that the Cabinet in Dublin will be kept regularly informed of the progress of the negotiations.


Go Figure

[turdsl]

It Was an unforgivable act of betrayal not to accept the will of the Dail

[Captain Con O'Sullivan]

De Valera knew damn well how he was going to hang Collins out to dry. If De Valera was so panicky in his 'secret instructions to plenipotentiaries' he should have gone to London himself.

He chose not to. And I know you are quoting from your own blogpost but that doesn't constitute a researched fact. Could I have a reference for the document you mention spelling out what Colllins' instructions were? And should such a document not have been from the Dail rather than a set of instructions from a President?

[Cogadh]

De Valera knew damn well how he was going to hang Collins out to dry. If De Valera was so panicky in his 'secret instructions to plenipotentiaries' he should have gone to London himself.

He chose not to. And I know you are quoting from your own blogpost but that doesn't constitute a researched fact. Could I have a reference for the document you mention spelling out what Colllins' instructions were? And should such a document not have been from the Dail rather than a set of instructions from a President?

You can't know much about the period in question if you don't recognise the instructions but that much was clear from your first post on the topic.

But the original instructions can be seen in UCD archives and are photographed in Diarmuid Ferriter's book on de Valera, they are also on the Dáil records for the Treaty debates themselves which can be accessed on the interwebs.

[Catalpa]

De Valera knew damn well how he was going to hang Collins out to dry. If De Valera was so panicky in his 'secret instructions to plenipotentiaries' he should have gone to London himself.

He chose not to. And I know you are quoting from your own blogpost but that doesn't constitute a researched fact. Could I have a reference for the document you mention spelling out what Colllins' instructions were? And should such a document not have been from the Dail rather than a set of instructions from a President?

Link here:

Dil ireann - Volume 3 - 14 December, 1921 - DEBATE ON TREATY

No President De Valera was the head of State and the buck stopped with him.

Obviously he could not spend two months of his time flitting back and forth between Dublin and London at a time like that.

+ if the negotiations broke down what was to stop the British interning all the Delegates on the spot if hostilities were going to be renewed?

No Dev was quite correct to stay in Dublin - the rug was pulled from under him though.