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  1. #21
    Gabha Óir Gabha Óir is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by diy01 View Post
    Although the figures for the 1851 census are generally accepted to represent an underestimation, they aren't THAT MUCH of an underestimation. I don't see how any community, whether on an offshore island or the mainland, could have been 100% Irish speaking in Ulster in the 19th century.

    Still, the figure for the Barony as a whole distorts the picture a bit. I remember reading some articles about the last native speakers back in the 50s so I don't see how it's possible that there could have even been a simple Irish speaking majority in 1900, never mind 100%.

    It's an interesting place because the Irish of Rathlin was once termed 'essentially a Scottish [Gaelic] dialect.' All the original inhabitants were massacred back in the 16th or 17th century and I guess replaced by Scots living on the Antrim mainland at some point. Either gallóglaigh or a long-established family like the MacDonnells of the Glens or perhaps Scots Gaelic speaking settlers.
    To be fair the good Canon was fiercely pro-Irish and I wasn't suggesting that they were monoglots although I'm fairly certain he stated a good few of them were.

    Our jolly fine Irish friends in Carrigoline erected a plaque a few years back in memory of Sir Francis Drake,one of the director of actions of that jolly fine massacre of Somhairle Buí's kith and kin
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  2. #22
    diy01 diy01 is offline
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    If anyone is curious, the most Irish speaking barony in the Six Counties in 1851 was Orior Upper in Armagh. Includes Jonesborough etc... 29.2% of the population recorded as Irish speakers. 9,260 speakers total - including 107 monoglots.

    Second highest: Upper Strabane in Tyrone. 24.1%. 5,548 speakers including 318 monoglots.

    Highest in Ireland:

    Barony of Ross (North Conamara, south Mayo). 92.5% Irish speaking. 7,113 speakers. It actually INCREASED to 99.3% in the census of 1891. 70% of the population were monoglot Irish speakers.
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  3. #23
    5intheface 5intheface is offline

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    This is a link about the first Feis na nGleann which mentions 200 of the Island's 325 Irish speakers crossing the 'Straits' for the event which was held in 1904.

    Don't know what the population of the Island was but I'd say that was a right % of the overall total.

    Also, the last native speaker, Bella McKenna died in 1985. I met her when I joined my sister for a trip there as she was a Podiatrist (Chiropodist) who covered that area.

    Feis na nGleann | Culture Northern Ireland
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  4. #24
    cathal maguidhir cathal maguidhir is offline

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    nice work by senator norris ,s ancestor

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabha Óir View Post
    To be fair the good Canon was fiercely pro-Irish and I wasn't suggesting that they were monoglots although I'm fairly certain he stated a good few of them were.

    Our jolly fine Irish friends in Carrigoline erected a plaque a few years back in memory of Sir Francis Drake,one of the director of actions of that jolly fine massacre of Somhairle Buí's kith and kin
    Norris had brought cannon with him, so that the weak defences were speedily destroyed, and after a fierce assault, in which several of the garrison were killed, the Scots were obliged to yield at discretion, and every living thing in the place, except the chief and his family, who were probably reserved for ransom, was immediately put to the sword. Two hundred were killed in the castle. It was then discovered that several hundred more, chiefly mothers and their little ones, were hidden in the caves about the shore. There was no pity for them. They were hunted out as if they had been seals or otters, and all destroyed. Sorley Boy and the other chiefs, wrote Essex to Queen Elizabeth, had sent their wives and children into the island, "which be all taken and executed to the number of 600." Sorley Boy himself, he continued, stood upon the mainland of "the Glynnes and saw the taking of the island, and was likely to have run mad for sorrow, tearing and tormenting himself and saying that he there lost all that he ever had." Such was the tragedy of the 22nd July, 1575. Lord Essex described it as one of the exploits with which he was most satisfied, and Queen Elizabeth, in answer to his letter, bade him tell John Norris, " the executioner of his well designed enterprise, that she would not be unmindful of his services." Such was the verdict on the massacre in those fierce times, but in more modern days this massacre has left a stain on the memory of Lord Essex that will not soon be obliterated.
    Rathlin Island
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  5. #25
    Lord Deputy of Listowel Lord Deputy of Listowel is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabha Óir View Post
    Great work there diy01.

    The quote from Daniel O'Connell has always stuck in my mind since I first came across it as a teenager. Considering that Eibhlín Dubh Ní Chonaill, who wrote Caoineadh Airt Uí Laoghaire, was O'Connell's aunt I couldn't comprehend why he would have entertained such anti-Irish sentiments. It is no longer a shock to the system particularly reading some posts on this site in relation to the language. I wryly enjoy the image of drippings of pigeon byproduct that adorn his head each time I pass. Now that is a fitting tribute.
    How dare you chastise a great Irishman such as Daniel O'Connell.
    Like many distinguished Kerryman, he espoused pragmatism, realism and declined to live in the make believe world that sadly some of you appear to inhabit.
    Regrettably it’s the propensity of certain low caliber individuals to wantonly vilify historical individuals, rather than confront their own inadequacies and shortcomings of their respective countries.
    The Irish language died simply because the inhabitants of this Island abandoned it, it’s as simple as that, practicalities and indeed the necessities of mere survival induced people to do so, with such pressing issues idealism goes out the window.
    The primary obstacle confronting Irish today is the apparent indifference of the majority of citizens. We simply haven’t got it in us to tackle it in any meaningful practical way, so in order to assuage our collective guilt conscience we duly consign it to the schools, and let the unfortunate children and their teachers take up the gauntlet.
    Rather sad really.
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  6. #26
    Gabha Óir Gabha Óir is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Deputy of Listowel View Post
    How dare you chastise a great Irishman such as Daniel O'Connell.
    Like many distinguished Kerryman, he espoused pragmatism, realism and declined to live in the make believe world that sadly some of you appear to inhabit.
    Regrettably it’s the propensity of certain low caliber individuals to wantonly vilify historical individuals, rather than confront their own inadequacies and shortcomings of their respective countries.
    The Irish language died simply because the inhabitants of this Island abandoned it, it’s as simple as that, practicalities and indeed the necessities of mere survival induced people to do so, with such pressing issues idealism goes out the window.
    The primary obstacle confronting Irish today is the apparent indifference of the majority of citizens. We simply haven’t got it in us to tackle it in any meaningful practical way, so in order to assuage our collective guilt conscience we duly consign it to the schools, and let the unfortunate children and their teachers take up the gauntlet.
    Rather sad really.
    That would be the make believe world of his aunt you are refering to a true example of a Kerry great. A pragmatist in the same vein of Jackie Healy Rae......
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  7. #27
    5intheface 5intheface is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Deputy of Listowel View Post
    How dare you chastise a great Irishman such as Daniel O'Connell.
    Hear hear! I call for an immediate ban on the criticism of any Irishmen on this site and the recognition of the fact that being from Kerry automatically elevates one to the status of National Hero without further discussion.

    Wise up and tell us why you think the DOC is such a great man and let others give us their opinions too. How dare you? Now that's funny.
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  8. #28
    18 Brumaire 18 Brumaire is offline

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    Daniel O'Connell was a scoundrel and a fraud.
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  9. #29
    Lord Deputy of Listowel Lord Deputy of Listowel is offline

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    [QUOTE
    Wise up and tell us why you think the DOC is such a great man and let others give us their opinions too. [/QUOTE]

    That great Kerryman – the most illustrious Daniel O’Connell once stood up and proclaimed,-
    “That the freedom of Ireland was not worth the shedding of a single drop of blood”.
    Indeed it’s a matter of profound regret that those wise words went unheeded.
    Look at the sorry state we’re in today.
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  10. #30
    Thranduil Thranduil is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Deputy of Listowel View Post
    Wise up and tell us why you think the DOC is such a great man and let others give us their opinions too.

    That great Kerryman – the most illustrious Daniel O’Connell once stood up and proclaimed,-
    “That the freedom of Ireland was not worth the shedding of a single drop of blood”.
    Indeed it’s a matter of profound regret that those wise words went unheeded.
    Look at the sorry state we’re in today.
    Didn't believe in practicing what he preached however and i'm not just talking about dueling. He spent his early years in the yeomanry and fought against the insurgents in 1803. Obviously the empire was well worth shedding blood for as far as he was concerned.

    Some quotes on O'Connell from me who could be considered real would-be 'liberators'...

    From A History of the Irish Working Class By Peter Berresford Ellis

    http://books.google.com/books?id=fOh...result#PPP1,M1

    'O'Connell's chief weakness... was his political abhorrence of revolutionary media. His constant declaration on this head and his truly ridiculous contention that liberty was not worth the shedding of human blood, injured the political force of his movement enormously with English rulers'

    I think that quote is quite apt when you consider that he led his enormous marches for repeal a few years before The Great Hunger, a demonstration of sheer power it was but castrated too by this principle, as Engels said about the potential of the lower members of the Repeal Movement...

    'They haven't a penny to lose, more than half of them have not a shirt to their back, they are real proletarians and sans culottes, and Irish besides-wild ungovernable, fanatical Gaels. Nobody knows what the Irish are like until he has seen them. If i had two hundred thousand Irish i could overthrow the whole British Monarchy.'

    John Mitchell said of him that next to the British he was the "Greatest enemy Ireland ever had". I think this might be overdoing a bit, but his commitment to the causes of Irish freedom can be legitimately questioned, it could also be argued that by collecting Irish solidarity in the repeal movement and backing down in the end he made a terrible error - whereby taking a stand and not committing to it is worse than not taking the stand in the first place at all - similiar to the dilemma the hunger strikers faced - beginning and not completing the hunger strikes would make them look weak.

    Also, are you sure you are not exaggerating a little bit when you say 'sorry state we're in today'? I mean the Troubles hardly touched the Republic at all in terms of direct violence and even the North, 3-4 thousand dead after 30 years is extremely low in comparison to just about any other conflict.
    Last edited by Thranduil; 14th February 2009 at 05:47 PM.
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