90th Anniversary of An Céad Dáil Éireann - the First Dáil Éireann‏

[Truth.ie]

Thats the reality of it chara. Twist and spin or not.
To repeat-

no matter what you want to achieve in terms of the Republic IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN - Unless you have that very important will and support of the people.

The will of the Irish people is usurped by the minority Unionist community in the island. The Unionist veto over change, which was enshrined in the GFA, is the only barrier to the dreams and aspirations of those of the First Dail. Which makes the 90th anniversary commemoration by the Pro GFA parties all the more bewildering.

[PhoenixIreland]

The will of the Irish people is usurped by the minority Unionist community in the island. The Unionist veto over change, which was enshrined in the GFA, is the only barrier to the dreams and aspirations of those of the First Dail. Which makes the 90th anniversary commemoration by the Pro GFA parties all the more bewildering.

Tell us how you propose to force a United Ireland then, if you oppose the GFA route?
Less aspiration and more plans.

[daftpunkt]

Tell us how you propose to force a United Ireland then, if you oppose the GFA route?
Less aspiration and more plans.

Agreed, we could sit looking into the history books until they put us into the ground. The all Ireland agenda laid out by SF has the potential to further make the boarder irrelevant.

[merle haggard]

[quote=daftpunkt;1375047]

Hi Merle,
The declared will of the people has changed considerably since 1918. The embedding of the 26 county state and the partition of Ireland has become normal for the majority of the citizens on this Island. Therefore the declared will of the people is no longer there for the complete withdrawl of the British presence.

really ? have they been asked ? when have the Irish people been asked should the British governemnt leave ? British rule accross all of Ireland was often very much embedded and regarded as completely normal . But no less illegitimate
The people acting as a unit declared their will only once . That will has been constantly ignored . That will remains subject to British and unionist vetoes . That will has never changed .Otherwise the establishment and sinn fein would not now be attempting to pretend the declaration of independence can be twisted and spun into the GFA

So how do you change that? You change your strategy, because no matter what you want to achieve in terms of the Republic IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN - Unless you have that very important will and support of the people. You won't win that by back head on wall Republican strategies. One of those ways is to fight elections, gain political momentum, in doing so popularise the struggle and put forward different concepts for government.

youve adopted the strategy of john redmond . Your political position is that Britian has the right to violate national sovereignty . It renders any attachment to the Declaration of Independence farcical
the concept of governemnt in Ireland is that a British parliament shall remain in operation there under British sovereign authority along with partition. That is the British governemnts proposal , not the Irish peoples proposal .

So when the political climate changes, and being a part of that political climate, it's vital that you do no not get left out in the cold. Certain things have to grasped. the policing boards, 6 county government and all the horrible stuff that goes with it. But that doesn't mean support, it means working from within to achieve your strategic goals.
We could be content to sit on our laurels and pretend we are all doing the right thing for the sake of the Republic, but we're not about that. We're about achieving the Republic, by what ever means necessary.
So alot of time has passed since 1918, and different strategies have been worked, never the less the end goal is still the same, enshrined in 1916 and 1919.

what was enshrined in in 1916 and 1919 were neither aspirations or end goals but Irish national sovereignty and our inalienable and indefeasible right to exercise it free from foreign occupation and interference as a people . Spinning the declarations of national sovereignty and Independence into something they were not is not how one goes about defending those postions .
Propping up the British administration in Ireland and urging people to become informers for the crown forces against republican separatists actually is by definition supporting British institutions in Ireland . Accepting the legitimacy of British parliamentary and paramilitary institutions in Ireland is actually physically suporting them . Sinn fein supports them . Fianna Fail supports them .
But this week they will be trying to tell the Irish pople they support the Declaration of Independence too . A declaration which makes explict such foreign institutions in this country are completely illegal and illegitmate , always have been and always will be .
Political fraud is not a nobke position , a democratic position or a republican position . It is absolutely not the position of the Decalaration of Independence . It leaves British rule in the cold , not those who refuse to accept it .

[merle haggard]

Thats the reality of it chara. Twist and spin or not.
To repeat-

no matter what you want to achieve in terms of the Republic IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN - Unless you have that very important will and support of the people.

you seem to forget the British governemnt has been ignoring the will of the Irish people for centuries now and is likely to continue doing so . Accepting as sinn fein and fianna fail have done that the British governemnt have a perfectly legitmate right to ignore it and keep ignoring it will patently not change the British governemnts position - ie the Irish people have no right to national self determination .
One cannot agree with the British position and the Declaration of Independence at the same time . Simple as that , thats the reality .. Only a complete fraud would try to claim otherwise .

[RocheFG09]

SF sicken me with their claiming that they are the same party. That's bull, they split in two and only the idiots stayed with them. Its as much a different SF as the One Dev lead in 1917 and the one Griffith set up in 1905. Stop claiming this, its for real party's such a FG and FF. Not fools who wanted to fight a civil war until they could then lose miserably in another war of independence.

[daftpunkt]

SF sicken me with their claiming that they are the same party. That's bull, they split in two and only the idiots stayed with them. Its as much a different SF as the One Dev lead in 1917 and the one Griffith set up in 1905. Stop claiming this, its for real party's such a FG and FF. Not fools who wanted to fight a civil war until they could then lose miserably in another war of independence.

Can you tell me what you're on about? Because I can't make it out. You're clearly not up on your history. The 'war of independance' or the Tan war as it's better known as no independance was gained, came before the civil war. Go read a book on it.
Also, it is widely known that there was a shift in SF policy from the first SF of 1905 which was dual monarchist under Griffith, policies shifted after 1916 and into the tan war, which led to the SF which ran in the 1918 election. As for real parties FG and FF???

ok leave it at that.

[daftpunkt]

[QUOTE=merle haggard;1375917]

really ? have they been asked ? when have the Irish people been asked should the British governemnt leave ? British rule accross all of Ireland was often very much embedded and regarded as completely normal . But no less illegitimate
The people acting as a unit declared their will only once . That will has been constantly ignored . That will remains subject to British and unionist vetoes . That will has never changed .Otherwise the establishment and sinn fein would not now be attempting to pretend the declaration of independence can be twisted and spun into the GFA



youve adopted the strategy of john redmond . Your political position is that Britian has the right to violate national sovereignty . It renders any attachment to the Declaration of Independence farcical
the concept of governemnt in Ireland is that a British parliament shall remain in operation there under British sovereign authority along with partition. That is the British governemnts proposal , not the Irish peoples proposal .



what was enshrined in in 1916 and 1919 were neither aspirations or end goals but Irish national sovereignty and our inalienable and indefeasible right to exercise it free from foreign occupation and interference as a people . Spinning the declarations of national sovereignty and Independence into something they were not is not how one goes about defending those postions .
Propping up the British administration in Ireland and urging people to become informers for the crown forces against republican separatists actually is by definition supporting British institutions in Ireland . Accepting the legitimacy of British parliamentary and paramilitary institutions in Ireland is actually physically suporting them . Sinn fein supports them . Fianna Fail supports them .
But this week they will be trying to tell the Irish pople they support the Declaration of Independence too . A declaration which makes explict such foreign institutions in this country are completely illegal and illegitmate , always have been and always will be .
Political fraud is not a nobke position , a democratic position or a republican position . It is absolutely not the position of the Decalaration of Independence . It leaves British rule in the cold , not those who refuse to accept it .

Merle,
You raise valid points as ever chara. I'll respond to them on return as I'm in a rush ar maidin.
Biodh lá deas agat.

[onthefence]

I was watching the ceremony on TV and was wondering why there were so many empty seats. Surely they could have distributed free tickets for the general public to attend.

[kellsangel]

If the founding Fathers could join us for a day, what would they make of the wreckage that Fianna fail have made of one of the model economies of the world.?