McGurks Bar: British apolgise for the lies told.

[Amach na Casca]

And yet again, a thread about the British and their thuggery and mass murder of Irish citizens is, within a few posts, immediately derailed into endless WhatAboutTheIRA whining drivel from the usual self-loathing gimpoids. Cop on to yourselves you spineless cretins.

What's the matter, the Noble Sacred Master Race charging in on white horses to Save Civilisation of your adolescent wet dreams are being shown up for what they really are, and you like a 13-year-old schoolgirl with a crush are blindly rushing to defend your idol's honour. Grovlling westbrits are pathetic.

This thread is about official British involvement in and covering up of the murder of innocent Irish civilians. I know some of you find it very hard to accept that the British Army are just a bunch of mass-murdering goons, but embarking on an orgy of self-flagelleting wibbling about the Provos is a) traitorous and b) insulting and c) pathetic and d) completely irrelevant.

Get on the damn truck.

You're spot on with that assessment! Every fvking thread is the same, be it about bloody sunday, dublin/monaghan, that thread on Brit soldiers raping in Iraq etc always the same. A debate is always obfuscated by the said 'gimpoids' . but but .... the Brits are the most professional army in the world doing a difficult job tacking undesirables, they can be forgiven for the odd bit of collateral damage etc etc etc. There will NEVER be justice for those slain on one of the British Governments malevolent sponsored missions in Ireland or abroad! And there doesn't even seem to be much willpower to try and achieve some sort of justice or closure for the affected people either which is sad. People should be copping on that the bs feed to them in the national over the last few decades courtesy of Harris, CCoB, RD Edwards etc, generally Brit army = good, IRA = bad is mostly downright lies and propaganda masquerading as news. Wake up to reality people!

[merle haggard]

15 murdered by loyalists who were initially covered up for by their pals in the British army and yet the real issue is 'what about Kingsmills, eh?' F*ck off, turd.

it would be more corect to state they were murdered by loyalists working for the British army , under the kitsonian guidelines of freindly forces carrying out the necessary terrorism of the civilian population .

The loyalist groupings were effectively an arm of the British military , armed , directed and controlled by them .

[Slartibuckfast]

Sidewinder, relax for a minute. Nobody is trying to excuse the actions of the British in this case and if they are then shame on them. Murder is murder and collusion to murder is collusion to murder. They are heinous crime and anyone involved should be behind bars. However let’s not loose sight of the fact that the real victims here are those who were murdered and the families they left behind.

The IRA apology linked by one poster refers to the concept of a hierarchy of victims. What is then hard for many to accept is that there are certain posters who will seize on an issue such as this one where the British are to blame whereas they seek to ignore the atrocities committed by and covered up by republicans. In fact anyone who mentions such crimes (and we all know what they are) is attacked. How can one not conclude that there is a hierarchy of victims in the opinion of these people when they only seem interested in seeking justice and closure for the victims of crimes committed by one side while they overlook the crimes of the other?

Anyone who mentions the Provos in a pathetic attempt to deflect attention away from the actions of their heroes in the British army is attacked.

You people just can't see it. It just has to be about the Provos even when it's about the UVF and the British army. Go away.

[DaveM]

Sidewinder, relax for a minute. Nobody is trying to excuse the actions of the British in this case and if they are then shame on them. Murder is murder and collusion to murder is collusion to murder. They are heinous crime and anyone involved should be behind bars. However let’s not loose sight of the fact that the real victims here are those who were murdered and the families they left behind.

The IRA apology linked by one poster refers to the concept of a hierarchy of victims. What is then hard for many to accept is that there are certain posters who will seize on an issue such as this one where the British are to blame whereas they seek to ignore the atrocities committed by and covered up by republicans. In fact anyone who mentions such crimes (and we all know what they are) is attacked. How can one not conclude that there is a hierarchy of victims in the opinion of these people when they only seem interested in seeking justice and closure for the victims of crimes committed by one side while they overlook the crimes of the other?

Anyone who mentions the Provos in a pathetic attempt to deflect attention away from the actions of their heroes in the British army is attacked.

You people just can't see it. It just has to be about the Provos even when it's about the UVF and the British army. Go away.

No. What I'm saying is that if the desire exists to go back over the events of the last 40 years to give victims closure then that principle must be applied to all victims without exception. As for taking sides, personally I have no love for any of the protagonists in this conflict and I think they have all engaged in actions of staggering brutality that cannot be justified. Murder is murder in my opinion regardless of who was responsible.

[Slartibuckfast]

Looks like an apology has at last been given for the blatent lies that were put about by spurces within the British military at the time of this atrocity in the early 1970's.

The question though is why was what was very obviously at the time a Loyalist attack portrayed to the media as an IRA 'own goal'?

Surely those who spread these lies must have had the wit to know it would further alienate Nationalists in the North?

Very odd and spooky...

Northern Ireland secretary of state Shaun Woodward has already apologised in a letter to Scottish MP Michael Connarty whose great uncle was killed in the Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) attack on McGurk’s bar in north Belfast.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/bre ... king30.htm

The McGurk’s bombing was the single biggest atrocity in the North until the Omagh bombing of 1998 yet, instead of prompting rigorous investigation, it became the focus of spurious claims emanating from British Military Intelligence and promoted by the highest echelons of the British political establishment, including the British Cabinet.
In the intervening years, the British campaign of disinformation, which claimed ‘forensic evidence’ identified the IRA as responsible for the explosion and subsequent loss of life, has been completely exposed as propaganda but at the time it placed enormous pressure on the families of the dead and the victims that survived

http://www.anphoblacht.com/news/detail/30262

given that the people who bombed it were working for the british then their admission 30 odd years on that it wasnt the provos after all is pretty much insult to injury

Just looking through this thread again...didn't that d!ck Gerry Fitt also go about claiming at the start that it was the Ra that did it?

[Slartibuckfast]

Sidewinder, relax for a minute. Nobody is trying to excuse the actions of the British in this case and if they are then shame on them. Murder is murder and collusion to murder is collusion to murder. They are heinous crime and anyone involved should be behind bars. However let’s not loose sight of the fact that the real victims here are those who were murdered and the families they left behind.

The IRA apology linked by one poster refers to the concept of a hierarchy of victims. What is then hard for many to accept is that there are certain posters who will seize on an issue such as this one where the British are to blame whereas they seek to ignore the atrocities committed by and covered up by republicans. In fact anyone who mentions such crimes (and we all know what they are) is attacked. How can one not conclude that there is a hierarchy of victims in the opinion of these people when they only seem interested in seeking justice and closure for the victims of crimes committed by one side while they overlook the crimes of the other?

Anyone who mentions the Provos in a pathetic attempt to deflect attention away from the actions of their heroes in the British army is attacked.

You people just can't see it. It just has to be about the Provos even when it's about the UVF and the British army. Go away.

No. What I'm saying is that if the desire exists to go back over the events of the last 40 years to give victims closure then that principle must be applied to all victims without exception. As for taking sides, personally I have no love for any of the protagonists in this conflict and I think they have all engaged in actions of staggering brutality that cannot be justified. Murder is murder in my opinion regardless of who was responsible.

What you're really saying is, "Terrible that pub bombing. Absolutely terrible. Still, Provos Provos Provos Provos."

[merle haggard]

Sidewinder, relax for a minute. Nobody is trying to excuse the actions of the British in this case and if they are then shame on them. Murder is murder and collusion to murder is collusion to murder. They are heinous crime and anyone involved should be behind bars. However let’s not loose sight of the fact that the real victims here are those who were murdered and the families they left behind.

The IRA apology linked by one poster refers to the concept of a hierarchy of victims. What is then hard for many to accept is that there are certain posters who will seize on an issue such as this one where the British are to blame whereas they seek to ignore the atrocities committed by and covered up by republicans. In fact anyone who mentions such crimes (and we all know what they are) is attacked. How can one not conclude that there is a hierarchy of victims in the opinion of these people when they only seem interested in seeking justice and closure for the victims of crimes committed by one side while they overlook the crimes of the other?

so what you suggest then is everytime a particular atrocity by the British is mentioned on the news every last killing of the troubles must be corrolarised alongside it ?

cop onto yourself

The difference here is we had decades of the most draconian and one sided coverage of the north from RTE where stuff like this simply wasnt discussed .Where the British army explanation of events was accepted and broadcast unquestioningly . Where the people running the station were making sure their criminal activities against a civilian population werent mentioned and even the appalling scenario where the lunatic vetting , selecting and training current affairs journalists , Eoghan Harris , was advising them to seek out the views of the UDA as an accurate and reliable reflection of what was actually happening north of the border and to slant their reports to the RTE audience from that angle .

This was and is replicated in much of the Irish print media by the very same gob************************es

Nobody has ever been under any doubt republican insurgents committed blunders and atrocities , even war crimes . For decades they have been magnified in the minutest detail in the southern media , victims on the late late , peace awards , marches through dublin by an outraged middle class and all the rest . We even had Charlie Bird hectoring and relentlessly badgering a bereaved mother at a press conference untill she broke down in tears ( I cheered when that little get got kicked up OConnell street , ill never forget what he did to Mrs McKerr)
Barely a feckin mention of the victims of numerous unreported atrocities that RTE didnt want people to know about or discuss and where the lies of the perpetrators were presented as the truth . This is one such instance . You people have had your decades of censorship , lies, propaganda and misinformation and now its time for the terrorist acts of the side you supported unquestioningly to be discussed . 40years too late but by feck we'll discuss them and highlight them if we want without any po faced Pat Kenny wannabe lecturing us .

[Garibaldy]

I phrased the thing about those who considered themselves Irish to make it clear that they were the minority of what you would doubtless call the nationalist community in your simple binary, but what I - like the civil rights movement - refer to as non-unionists, which includes people who consider themselves Irish, but are not nationalists. Like me. But that is probably too complex a notion for you to grasp. You're not a nationalist, so you must be a unionist/west Brit/automaton. Well no. I'm a republican. A republican like Tone, and a republican like Connolly. I believe in an independent, secular democratic republic ruled by and for the people of no property. I oppose sectarianism and the murder of workers from wherever it came - British army, loyalists, or nationalist terrorists. Nationalism - be it Irish or British - is reactionary, reactionary because it divides the people of Ireland. Because nationalists of both hues seek only to appeal to one people from one religious background or the other. I stand with Tone. You can stand with the imperialists like O'Connell and Redmond, while your counterparts can stand with the Henry Wilsons of the world.

[Slartibuckfast]

I phrased the thing about those who considered themselves Irish to make it clear that they were the minority of what you would doubtless call the nationalist community in your simple binary, but what I - like the civil rights movement - refer to as non-unionists, which includes people who consider themselves Irish, but are not nationalists.

What is that gimp talking about does anyone know? Is he saying that the minority of nationalists in the north consider themselves Irish, or that the minority of people who are Irish are nationalist? Or is he just saying, as I strongly suspect, a load of utter sh!te?

[Garibaldy]

I'll make this clear seeing as it is proving too complicated for you. The Provos are a minority of people in Ireland; a minority of people in the six counties; during the violence, a minority of those who wanted to see a united Ireland. So how does opposing them constitute treason. None of which has anything to do with the British army's behaviour, but has lots to do with the way people talk about others on here.