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  1. #71
    PAGE61 PAGE61 is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Éireann_Ascendant View Post
    Article on a clash in Co. Donegal in May 1922 during the lead-up to the Civil War.

    A Debatable Ambush: The Newtowncunningham Incident in Co. Donegal, May 1922

    On the 4th May 1922, a convoy of pro-Treaty IRA men drove through the town of Newtowncunningham, Co. Donegal, and came under fire from a party of their anti-Treaty counterparts. The engagement lasted no more than three minutes, yet had been savage in its intensity, with three men killed, all Donegal natives from the pro-Treaty side. One survivor described it as a "veritable tornado."

    That it was an ambush, as initially reported, would be among the details disputed in the days to come.


    (Pro-Treaty soldiers on a lorry)

    At the inquest conducted by the pro-Treaty authorities, it was claimed that the convoy had been callously lured into a trap. In response, Seán Lehane, the commanding officer of the anti-Treaty IRA in Donegal, wrote to the press to tell his side of the story.

    His men in Newtowncunningham, he said, had been unaware of the identity of the convoy coming towards them, thinking it to be of the British military that was stationed in nearby Derry. When the newcomers were revealed to be fellow Irishmen, Lehane called on them to halt and had instead been fired upon. In the resulting shoot-out, it had been the Pro-Treatyites, Lehane claimed, who had precipitated it with the first shot.

    Lehane also stressed the essentially defensive nature of his side: "On several occasions parties of them were at our mercy, but we fired only with the intention of dislodging them."

    It was only later that the news that a truce between the two hostile factions had been signed in Dublin that morning reached Donegal - too late to have made a difference in Newtowncunningham.

    One detail that Lehane left out was that he had been in Donegal, despite being from Cork, in the first place as part of a joint venture, secretly agreed by Michael Collins and Liam Lynch, to continue the fight against British rule in Ulster. The Anti-Treatyites would provide the manpower, while the other side supplied weapons.

    At some point, however, this accord had gone badly wrong, resulting in five deaths altogether on the 4th May, two of them civilians, and a furthering of the bitter divisions between former comrades.


    (Newtowncunningham today)
    I would imagine that the tension between the two sides was high to say the least. The british were still around and were arming the free state army. In the early days im sure there was a lot of suspicion between the two sides.

    You could loosely draw a similar comparison between the American backed Iraqi police/army and the rest of Iraq after the war
    .
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  2. #72
    an Toimíneach an Toimíneach is offline

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    Quotes on the Pact Election...

    Quote Originally Posted by Talk Back View Post
    Where did you get this?
    Are there dates for each of the quotes anywhere?
    I'm struggling to find the Irish Times and Freemans Journal one in the online archives.
    Also, the Irish Independent one is a very selective snip.
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  3. #73
    McTell McTell is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by an Toimíneach View Post
    Where did you get this?
    Are there dates for each of the quotes anywhere?
    I'm struggling to find the Irish Times and Freemans Journal one in the online archives.
    Also, the Irish Independent one is a very selective snip.

    It didn't have to be written in the papers to be true, or not true, 90% of the people did not want a new war on their doorsteps.
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  4. #74
    Antóin Mac Comháin Antóin Mac Comháin is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by McTell View Post
    Collins had "lost it" some time in March 1922, trying to keep everyone happy by lying to all in turn.

    His "May offensive" was so badly planned and executed it doesn't even deserve the name. The price paid by northern catholics was huge.
    Quote Originally Posted by Antóin Mac Comháin View Post

    Units of the Anti-Treaty Irish Republican Army pictured with some of the vehicles captured from the British Forces in the Battle of Pettigo and Belleek, August 1922. Note the mix of military and civilian cars. Also the apparel of the volunteers, most in guerrilla mufti while the officers wear IRA uniforms
    Quote Originally Posted by Antóin Mac Comháin View Post

    A) Volunteers of the Irish Republican Army, 1922, wearing a mix of IRA uniforms and civilian clothing, typical of the late revolutionary period

    https://youtu.be/q3Nqg2ohiDY

    The O/C and the 11th soldier to the right in photo A) are wearing the same 'Irish Army' uniforms worn by the National Army at the bombardment of the Four Courts.
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  5. #75
    Antóin Mac Comháin Antóin Mac Comháin is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheKing View Post
    Its true, the evidence you are displaying shows all this.

    Thankyou for highlighting the truth.
    Well, no. I can vaguely understand why someone like you would troll a SF poster, but it's going beyond silly and stupid to troll a non-SF poster on a non-SF thread. I can't help how you or anyone else interprets history. The 1918 'General Election' is accepted by everyone to be a Referendum on Independence. Don't confuse history with politics.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheKing View Post
    Thankfully true patriots like Collins left SF.
    'Our mother was traveling on a tram which was stopped by a man in a funny hat, who told everyone to get off and go home. The family had always been staunchly Parnellite. Her political allegiance was coloured by her friendship with the family. They had heard of the SF movement, but considered it to be too extremist. They had no idea that one of the leaders, lived a stones throw away. She admired Michael Collins, because of Bloody Sunday. When she arrived home the shooting began. They took refuge in a basement and pushed mattresses against the windows. During one of the lulls she ventured out where she found one of the Irregulars lying near the front of the house bleeding, and she brought him home and dressed his wounds. When the fighting ended there was a deathly silence. The damage was appalling. One side of O'Connell Street was completely destroyed. In Grattan Place she came across one of the round-ups conducted by the British Army. The Irish were mostly young, pale, unshaven and exhausted, were forced to stand in a ring and throw weapons, ammunition and the contents of their pockets into the centre. A handful of British officers, spruce and swaggering, walked around jabbing the Irish in the ribs saying, ''Come on, rebel!; Come on, rebel!" Living as she did in the heart of Dublin, she said "It was wonderful. Wonderful", she said, "to see the British scurrying like rats for the first time in history, into the safety of Dublin Castle. The only thing the British ever understood, was a bullet from the barrel of a gun".
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  6. #76
    Talk Back Talk Back is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by McTell View Post
    That is a selective view, not held by all, and the vote that says so much is the non-SF vote and non-voters; "a plague on both your houses".

    The point of a change of political system is to make peoples' lives better, not worse. You can call that change what you like, but armed egomaniacs going round the country out of control was not what most people wanted to see in 1922.
    Rubbish.

    It's how under the terms of the 'Pact' election, the votes were counted.
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  7. #77
    Beachcomber Beachcomber is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Éireann_Ascendant View Post
    Article on a clash in Co. Donegal in May 1922 during the lead-up to the Civil War.

    A Debatable Ambush: The Newtowncunningham Incident in Co. Donegal, May 1922

    On the 4th May 1922, a convoy of pro-Treaty IRA men drove through the town of Newtowncunningham, Co. Donegal, and came under fire from a party of their anti-Treaty counterparts. The engagement lasted no more than three minutes, yet had been savage in its intensity, with three men killed, all Donegal natives from the pro-Treaty side. One survivor described it as a "veritable tornado."

    That it was an ambush, as initially reported, would be among the details disputed in the days to come.


    (Pro-Treaty soldiers on a lorry)

    At the inquest conducted by the pro-Treaty authorities, it was claimed that the convoy had been callously lured into a trap. In response, Seán Lehane, the commanding officer of the anti-Treaty IRA in Donegal, wrote to the press to tell his side of the story.

    His men in Newtowncunningham, he said, had been unaware of the identity of the convoy coming towards them, thinking it to be of the British military that was stationed in nearby Derry. When the newcomers were revealed to be fellow Irishmen, Lehane called on them to halt and had instead been fired upon. In the resulting shoot-out, it had been the Pro-Treatyites, Lehane claimed, who had precipitated it with the first shot.

    Lehane also stressed the essentially defensive nature of his side: "On several occasions parties of them were at our mercy, but we fired only with the intention of dislodging them."

    It was only later that the news that a truce between the two hostile factions had been signed in Dublin that morning reached Donegal - too late to have made a difference in Newtowncunningham.

    One detail that Lehane left out was that he had been in Donegal, despite being from Cork, in the first place as part of a joint venture, secretly agreed by Michael Collins and Liam Lynch, to continue the fight against British rule in Ulster. The Anti-Treatyites would provide the manpower, while the other side supplied weapons.

    At some point, however, this accord had gone badly wrong, resulting in five deaths altogether on the 4th May, two of them civilians, and a furthering of the bitter divisions between former comrades.


    (Newtowncunningham today)

    In contravention of the Treaty.

    So much for the honour of the rebel Irish.
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  8. #78
    Talk Back Talk Back is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beachcomber View Post
    In contravention of the Treaty.

    So much for the honour of the rebel Irish.
    What would England and its spawn here, the Unionists, know about "honour" in Ireland???
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  9. #79
    McTell McTell is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk Back View Post
    Rubbish.

    It's how under the terms of the 'Pact' election, the votes were counted.

    Not only did the "Pact" not work very well, but I'm looking at 1st prefs. The pact was all about transfers. Transfers had been brought in by the 1919 british act, and it was odd for "republicans" to make such a big deal of it in 1922 and after.
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