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  1. #21
    recedite recedite is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk Back View Post
    Dail Eireann voting on treaty was ULTRA VIRES - it was beyond the legal power or authority of Dail Eireann.

    The constitutional position from January 1922 till June 1922, when the renegade Free State army (deserts and betrays an organization, country, or set of principles) illegally attacked the Irish Republic was as follows.

    The Republic, legally established by the vote of the people, could not be disestablished by its legislature. The legislature (parliament) and Executive (cabinet) were merely organs of the Republic created to maintain and defend the Republic as the established State.

    In other words, constitutionally Dail Eireann could not be used to destroy the Irish Republic.
    That's an interesting theory, but its not borne out by facts.
    Firstly the (first) Irish Republic was not established by a referendum. It was proclaimed in 1916 by armed militants who (it is generally accepted) had only a minority support. It received a democratic mandate after SF defeated the IPP in a "landslide" election of 1919 and the first Dail formed to endorse the Irish Republic. Therefore we can say that the IR as a legitimate entity was really created by the first Dail. So, in that case the Dail could also delegitimise it.

    Secondly, you say "constitutionally Dail Eireann could not be used to destroy the Irish Republic". But there is no constitutional bar on this happening. Here is the actual constitution (English language version) There is no mention at all of how the IR would be dissolved. That is not at all surprising. Nobody sets up a new state with the intention of it failing.

    So it defaults to being dissolved in the same way as it was created; Legitimately by the Dail, and practically by force of arms.

    in 1937 there was a plebiscite/referendum establishing a new constitution for a new (26 county) republic. It follows that our current republic could not legitimately be dissolved by its Dail, only by referendum.
    It could be argued that the 32 county IR of 1916-1922 was not founded in the same way, and never had the same sort of legitimacy.
    Last edited by recedite; 5th August 2018 at 09:06 PM.
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  2. #22
    Talk Back Talk Back is offline

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    First of all the election you refer to was in 1918, not 1919.

    Also, neither Dail Eireann or the Irish Republic was disestablished. Dail Eireann agreed it could not disestablish itself or the Irish Republic. Furthermore, this was clearly understood on January 9th, 1922 when Arthur Griffith took office as President of Dail Eireann. He knew that Dail Eireann could not unilaterally ratify the Treaty, and because of this, he pledged himself to maintain the Republic until it would be disestablished by a vote of the people.

    I already posted this.

    Dail Eireann voting on treaty was ULTRA VIRES - it was beyond the legal power or authority of Dail Eireann.

    The constitutional position from January 1922 till June 1922, when the renegade Free State army (deserts and betrays an organization, country, or set of principles) illegally attacked the Irish Republic was as follows.

    The Republic, legally established by the vote of the people, could not be disestablished by its legislature. The legislature (parliament) and Executive (cabinet) were merely organs of the Republic created to maintain and defend the Republic as the established State.

    In other words, constitutionally Dail Eireann could not be used to destroy the Irish Republic.

    Furthermore, this was clearly understood on January 9th, 1922 when Arthur Griffith took office as President of Dail Eireann. He knew that Dail Eireann could not unilaterally ratify the Treaty, and because of this, he pledged himself to maintain the Republic until it would be disestablished by a vote of the people.

    Griffith's exact words were "Dáil Eireann, as the President said (referring to de valera) - I must still and always call him President - can only be disestablished by the will of the Irish people. What I propose to do is this - when we adopt the form of Provisional Government - is to arrange for a plebiscite of the Irish people or a General Election on this question as to whether they will have a Free State or a Republic."

    Read and learn https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates.../1922-01-09/3/

    The people never voted on the treaty or to disestablish Dail Eireann or to disestablish the Irish Republic or for war - the 'Pact' approved by Dail Eireann on the 20th of May and by the Sinn Fein Party on the 23rd of May prevented the people voting on the treaty.

    The renegade Free State army (deserts and betrays an organization, country, or set of principles) had NO authority to attack the Irish Republic on June 28th, four days after the 'Pact' election votes were counted on June 24th - and suppress Dail Eireann two days before it was scheduled to meet to discuss the results of the 'Pact' election on June 30th, and to form the new Dail Eireann (3rd) on July 1st. at 12 p.m.
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  3. #23
    recedite recedite is offline

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    1918 elections, yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Talk Back View Post
    Dail Eireann agreed it could not disestablish itself or the Irish Republic. Furthermore, this was clearly understood on January 9th, 1922 when Arthur Griffith took office as President of Dail Eireann. He knew that Dail Eireann could not unilaterally ratify the Treaty, and because of this, he pledged himself to maintain the Republic until it would be disestablished by a vote of the people.
    Griffith did say that yes, and he was pushed into saying it by Dev who was nominating him to be a President.
    But there was no "president" in the original official constitution. (I linked to it already)
    There was a "chairman"...Article 3
    A Chairman elected annually by the Dail, and in his absence a Deputy Chairman so elected, shall preside at all meetings of Dail Eireann. Only members of the Dail shall be eligible for these offices. In case of the absence of the Chairman and Deputy Chairman the Dail shall fill the vacancies or elect a temporary Chairman.
    Dev had pushed for the office of President to be created because he had his own ambitions. He wanted it for himself.
    Collins was more a man of action and practical business. He said in The Treaty Debate 9th January 1922

    FORMATION OF NEW EXECUTIVE

    MR. DE VALERA: The Constitution is that there must be a President elected. You will have to elect a President and have a Cabinet or you are going to break up the Constitution. Now I do ask you not to smash up the Republic, not to break up your Constitution. Try to proceed constitutionally.

    MR. M. COLLINS: Naturally, I agree to that thing so long as it is President of the Chamber of Deputies, or anything you like. But I simply put that forward as an amendment to the other resolution and I put it forward as my best endeavour to avoid that last vote, and I could only suggest what, to me, seems common sense. I do not care whether you call the principal man here President or not. Even if the word “President” if it is inserted there—if that will make my motion a proper motion then that word may be put in. But, obviously, the thing before us is that we must find some kind of machinery for taking the next step......

    ..The way I mean is that Mr. Griffith may be asked to form a Committee and take over and carry on. Words and phrases are no hindrance to us no matter how bitter they be. I am not a lover of words and phrases. What I want is—what I have always wanted is —to get the army out of Ireland. And we will have to establish some kind of contact, and it is the difficulties of the situation that I am thinking of...
    Collins was right in this.

    Griffith did say what you said he said. But Griffith was wrong, and it was not "clearly understood" or agreed by all. Being the Chairman did not make his opinions infallible. Dev was also wrong. These guys caused a civil war due to not being able to accept their wrongness.
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  4. #24
    Éireann_Ascendant Éireann_Ascendant is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Field Marshal View Post
    The anti treaty account in the OP does not sound in the least plausible.
    Also highly unlikely that fanatic lunatic Liam Lynch and Collins would have agreed on anything
    Plausible, the anti-Treaty account may or may not be - given the fog of war, who's to say for sure? - but Collins and Lynch seemed to have gotten along pretty well. The hope was that Lynch could be the bridge between the two factions, and to that end he was released after being arrested while trying to leave Dublin during the attack on the Four Courts.

    Of course, Lynch promptly took charge of the IRA and declared his intent to fight to the bitter end - which he did - but as he had previously helped diffuse the stand-off in Limerick in February 1922, it was understandable that the Free State saw him as a possible moderating factor.
    Last edited by Éireann_Ascendant; 6th August 2018 at 05:54 PM.
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  5. #25
    Bleu Poppy Bleu Poppy is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Field Marshal View Post
    You hate democracy and want to murder Irish people who support it.
    All in the name of a fascist republic controlled by mad extremists with no sense of reality or morality.
    And don't forget their Quisling collaboration with the fascists and nazis of Europe in the 1938-1945 period.
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  6. #26
    Bleu Poppy Bleu Poppy is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk Back View Post
    You only think it is rubbish because you clearly know nothing about what you are posting about.

    The people never voted on the treaty - the 'Pact' approved by Dail Eirean on the 20th of May and by the Sinn Fein Party on the 23rd of May prevented the people voting on the treaty. Everyone (except Griffith) wanted to remove the electorate from the responsibility of voting on the treaty until the voter registry was updated and the Free State constitution was ready for debate - and they wanted to avert war. Only a moron would suggest that people voted for war.

    Read and learn https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates.../1922-05-20/2/

    The 'Pact' were the terms under which the election was run. Sinn Fein ran a joint panel of candidates to form a coalition government to third Dail Eireann. The 'Pact' was binding, and accepted by all in the interest of peace. Dail Eireann rose on the 8th of June and was to reconvene on the 30th of June to discuss the results before forming the third Dail Eireann at 12 P.M. on the 1st of July. 1922.

    The renegade Free State army (deserts and betrays an organization, country, or set of principles) had NO authority to attack the Irish Republic on June 28th, four days after the 'Pact' election votes were counted on June 24th - and suppress Dail Eireann two days before it was scheduled to meet to discuss the results of the 'Pact' election on June 30th, and to form the new Dail Eireann (3rd) on July 1st. at 12 p.m.
    How many constituencies were NOT contested in accordance with the putative Pact? Was it 10%?

    Would you get it into your head that the 'Pact' was a smokescreen- designed to save lives and allow people vote with the minimum of intimidation and threat of violence which were threatened on a daily basis by the non-democrats and delivered on frequently.

    90 or so years on ye are playing at democracy and putting up a pretence of political responsibility until one or other of the gunmen's front-women step out of line- then a sharp rebuke emanates from the Army Council. As we saw only in the past week.
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  7. #27
    InsideImDancing InsideImDancing is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Field Marshal View Post
    Rubbish.
    The people voted to accept the treaty and murderous fascist anti treaty types decided to kill their fellow countrymen .

    you de Valera and the rest of the gutties have peddled nothing but fascist shyte to this very day.
    I missed that vote in Derry.

    But yeah some of them voted. Shame on the bunch of cowards.
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  8. #28
    McTell McTell is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk Back View Post
    //

    In other words, constitutionally Dail Eireann could not be used to destroy the Irish Republic.//

    .

    It didn't, anyway. The Republic and the provisional government were blended into the new free state by the end of 1922.

    By may 1922 the british military presence had shrunk to Cork, Kildare and Dublin, so of course they didn't want to invade Donegal, that they had so recently pulled out of.

    The whole story only goes to prove how dumbos with guns, believing in fantasies, can really mess up other peoples' lives.
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  9. #29
    Toland Toland is online now
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    Quote Originally Posted by InsideImDancing View Post
    I missed that vote in Derry.

    But yeah some of them voted. Shame on the bunch of cowards.
    god on a stick
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  10. #30
    Buchaill Dana Buchaill Dana is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Field Marshal View Post
    Rubbish.
    The people voted to accept the treaty and murderous fascist anti treaty types decided to kill their fellow countrymen .

    you de Valera and the rest of the gutties have peddled nothing but fascist shyte to this very day.
    When was that vote and what was the % in favour
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