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  1. #11
    Mitsui2 Mitsui2 is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk Back View Post
    This is more about a west-brit undermining Ireland/being Irish, than about undermining St Patrick - per se.
    You can tell when a man has a real hobbyhorse because everything he sees starts to look like a stable.
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  2. #12
    Malcolm Redfellow Malcolm Redfellow is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruimh View Post
    Any relation to T.C. Kingsmill Moore?
    I'd assume so. "T.C" was the Visitor to TCD right through the 1960s.

    "T.C." was son of Canon Henry Kingsmill Moore, who ran the CoI College of Education from the 1880s down to the 1920s. Without doing a family genealogy (the Kingsmill Moores are still found in the wild), I can see obvious linkages.

    Despite Talk Back's sneer (post #4) they were another of the families who served their nation (define that as one will) gracefully and well. However, I accept his reproof: what right has a good British?/Scottish? lad like Patrick to interfere in matters exclusively Irish?

    As for Kingsmill Moore's little book, I fail to see much wrong with putting into the hands and minds of the young what was, for pre-WW1, a balanced first history.

    Cruimh's further post on Lupait, a.k.a. Lupita, possibly also Liamain, isn't quite the authorised version in Canon John O'Hanlon's Lives of the Irish Saints. There's a rip from O'Hanlon on Lupait here. Meanwhile O'Hanlon did a proper job on Patrick himself.
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  3. #13
    Niall996 Niall996 is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by between the bridges View Post
    Patrick's genocide against the native religion and culture wasn't mentioned...
    No, that came later. Much later.
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  4. #14
    The Eagle of the Ninth The Eagle of the Ninth is offline
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    In answer to first question, the tales of St Patrick were introduced to us at primary school, along with those of Cķ Chulainn.

    We found the latter much more entertaining and plausible.
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  5. #15
    Casablanca Casablanca is offline
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    St Patrick has a lot to answer for, not least for encourage ejects to pin bits of clover to their jackets, thereby ruining the construction, fashion value and the appearance of said individuals

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  6. #16
    Half Nelson Half Nelson is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruimh View Post
    He certainly seems to have been a monster.....



    Page 286


    Of Vanishing Fetuses and Maidens Made-Again: Abortion, Restored Virginity, and Similar Scenarios in Medieval Irish Hagiography and Penitentials
    Maeve B. Callan
    Journal of the History of Sexuality, Volume 21, Number 2, May 2012,
    pp. 282-296 (Article)
    "written sometime between the ninth and twelfth centuries" - a collection of fantastical stories mixed with bits of truth.
    Don't bet the house on it.
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  7. #17
    eoghanacht eoghanacht is offline
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    I read one time that what came down to our ancestors as Patrick wasn't a name but a title from the Latin and Greek pater/patÍr.

    Same as Patrician, a male figure head.
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  8. #18
    eoghanacht eoghanacht is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Half Nelson View Post
    "written sometime between the ninth and twelfth centuries" - a collection of fantastical stories mixed with bits of truth.
    Don't bet the house on it.


    Says he with the Bible
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  9. #19
    Malcolm Redfellow Malcolm Redfellow is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Half Nelson View Post
    "written sometime between the ninth and twelfth centuries" - a collection of fantastical stories mixed with bits of truth.
    Don't bet the house on it.
    We weren't.

    But it raises a question (and potentially a competition): what ranks as the earliest spot-on dating in Irish history? For obvious reasons I'm suggesting the Annals of the Four Masters, and Noah's grand-daughter Ceasair arriving in Bantry Bay forty days before the Great Flood of Anno Mundi 2242 (so 1742 BC?) might not quite fulfil the requirement.

    I recall being 'taught' that the landing of C. Julius Caesar, probably at Walmer in Kent, on 27 August 55BC, was the oldest-proven absolute date in British history. And that 'history' began for the Egyptians in 4236BC.

    Obviously I'm assuming a documentary record — and that generally means something regal or dynastic or — most likely — military.
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  10. #20
    nationalsday nationalsday is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruimh View Post
    Any relation to T.C. Kingsmill Moore?
    The author of "A Man May Fish" one of the greats of Irish fishing books. That, and "Fishing and Thinking" by A.A. Luce.
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