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  1. #21
    Ratio Et Fides Ratio Et Fides is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Volatire View Post
    Sad how geriatric lefties flounder around when exposed to new ideas.

    Shame you never finished school. Was the free education not available at that time?
    Mitsui2 isn't by any means a "Leftie".
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  2. #22
    parentheses parentheses is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volatire View Post
    Sad how geriatric lefties flounder around when exposed to new ideas.

    Shame you never finished school. Was the free education not available at that time?
    Anyways, it's a great OP.
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  3. #23
    Nebuchadnezzar Nebuchadnezzar is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dearghoul View Post
    What you mean the Lutherans didn't invite the Muslims into Sweden to turn off the lights in a gesture of solidarity with other iconoclasts?

    'Lepanto' the Chesterton job is great and has a right old rattle to it, and the baddies are real baddies as well. You can tell who they are straight away.
    Lutherans aren’t iconoclasts. You’re suffering the same misunderstanding as Sultan Murad III, as quoted in the OP.
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  4. #24
    Justinian Justinian is offline
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    Contemporary sources give good explanation behind the phrase "Liever Turks dan Paaps" (Rather Turkish than Papist). Jan Fruytiers wrote in 1577 that some of the Geuzen wore silver half moons with this phrase inscribed upon it because they considered the tyranny of the Pope to be greater than the tyranny of the Turk because the Turk, at least, left a man's conscience alone so long as they paid taxes, additionally it was held that the Turk was considered at least as trustworthy as the Pope.

    This explanation behind the phrase one also sees in the so-called 'geuzenliederen'. To quote my own translation of a part of such a song: "Rather to be found Turkish than Papal, even though the Turk is not a Christian, he has not burned anyone for his faith like the Papists do every day". The same song I've translated also implicitly praises the Turk for attacking the Spanish on the basis that the Spanish then couldn't fight the Dutch at full capacity.

    What the above illustrates then is that the origins of the phrase lie in the deep antipathy garnered by the Dutch (and the geuzen specifically) towards the intolerant Papist regime under which the Dutch had suffered and that they'd even be willing to suffer the tyranny of the Turk so long as that meant that people would no longer be burned for their faith/be free to exercise their faith. It's not so much an expression of sympathy for the Turk (still tyrannical and the fact that he's not Christian is clearly seen as a bad thing) as it is of extremely deep antipathy towards tyranny of the intolerant Catholic regime that the Netherlands suffered under and which, instead of affording the Dutch freedom of religion, persecuted non-Catholics.

    The idea that it reflects an invitation of Islam into Europe is nonsensical, it reflects a desire for religious tolerance.
    Last edited by Justinian; 3rd December 2017 at 10:52 AM.
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  5. #25
    Volatire Volatire is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by parentheses View Post
    Anyways, it's a great OP.
    Thank you.

    Islam’s hatred of idolatry, emphasis on the written “word of god” and rejection of religious hierarchy played well with the reformists.

    The modern idiot leftie-Protestant view, that Islam is a benign belief system compatible with Western values, may stem from that era.
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  6. #26
    Se0samh Se0samh is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nebuchadnezzar View Post
    Lutherans aren’t iconoclasts. You’re suffering the same misunderstanding as Sultan Murad III, as quoted in the OP.

    Calvin...
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  7. #27
    Nebuchadnezzar Nebuchadnezzar is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Se0samh View Post
    Calvin...
    I think Calvinism is more intolerant of images than Lutheranism is.

    Mind you, Luther himself seemed to approve of Muslim statue smashing etc...

    It is part of the Turks' holiness, also, that they tolerate no images or pictures and are even holier than our destroyers of images. For our destroyers tolerate, and are glad to have, images on gulden, groschen, rings, and ornaments; but the Turk tolerates none of them and stamps nothing but letters on his coins.
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  8. #28
    Volatire Volatire is offline
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    The phrase "Liever Turks dan Paaps" (best translated as "Better Islam than Popery") is reminiscent of "Better Red than Dead" used by euro-lefties during the cold war.

    Part surrender-monkeyism, part admiration for the invaders' philosophy.
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  9. #29
    Justinian Justinian is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volatire View Post
    The phrase "Liever Turks dan Paaps" (best translated as "Better Islam than Popery")
    No, you utter nincompoop, it is not even remotely translated as that. Take it from someone fluent in both languages. If believing it makes you feel better though, go right ahead.
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  10. #30
    Se0samh Se0samh is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nebuchadnezzar View Post
    I think Calvinism is more intolerant of images than Lutheranism is.

    Mind you, Luther himself seemed to approve of Muslim statue smashing etc...
    Andreas Bodenstein von Karlstadt, adopted iconoclastic views and began wreaking havoc while Luther was in hiding at the Wartburg Castle from 1521-1522.....
    ...And I say at the outset that according to the Law of Moses no other images are forbidden than an image of God which one worships. A crucifix, on the other hand, or any other holy image is not forbidden. Heigh now! you breakers of images, I defy you to prove the opposite!.

    https://lutheranreformation.org/hist...e-iconoclasts/
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