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  1. #21
    RasherHash RasherHash is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Civic_critic2 View Post
    "The members of the Provisional Government of Ireland received the surrender of Dublin Castle at 1.45 p.m. today."
    Still great after 800 years to be able to issue that.
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  2. #22
    Civic_critic2 Civic_critic2 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by RasherHash View Post
    Still great after 800 years to be able to issue that.
    It is preposterous to present your details to the Lord Lieutenant for his confirmation of the legality of your government and then come out and say that you've received his surrender. Completely in line with the psychological abuse and sneaking around pretending one thing while reality is another that was a hallmark of occupation and which was continued to this day with devastating results. It is the soul of deception and evasion from which springs much of the poison of this state over the last century.
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  3. #23
    The Field Marshal The Field Marshal is offline
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    The signing of the treaty by the delegates was always , always subject to ratification by Dáil Éireann.
    Everybody back then knew that.

    Therefore it matters not a damm if the delegates exceeded or did not exceed their authority.
    The deed was done and the actual responsibility for accepting /rejecting the treaty rested rightly with Dáil Éireann who chose to accept it.

    This historical naval gazing about motivitations etc of the delegates serves no purpose at all.
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  4. #24
    Roberto Jordan Roberto Jordan is online now

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    Quote Originally Posted by pinemartin View Post
    That narrative is just for children and blue shirts, anyone with even a basic reading of history or an understanding of how politicians act would know that that fairy story is not credible.

    Are you saying that a cunning, manipulative and able politician like Dev would decide that he no longer would be the supreme leader and he then decides that his only course of action is to withdraw from talks and hand political power to Collins and Griffith? Collins in your narrative would then be free to sign the treaty and then assume political power.

    Griffith fatally undermined the Irish delegation's plan to collapse the talks (if the talks needed to be collapsed) over the six counties by doing a secret side deal with George.
    TBF griffith wasn't the only one who made a misstep. The fact that they allowed the talks to halt on the oath , thanks to gavan duffy if i recall, was in and of itself not part of their plan. But you are correct in that Griffiths actions were more significant and fatal to the negotiation position, reading the teams account you can picture the color draining from their faces when loyd george "dobbed" griffith in it.

    he strategy had been to make partition the sticking point as it would result in oaths etc. being an easier sell, in the same way that , never having allowed lengthened discussion and accepting parking for the boundary commission the north infamously got lost as an issue at the time and in the immediate aftermath.

    As others have noted collins and dev actually represented the center of the sinn fein movement. Collins was in there to act as a bridge between the armed wing and political wing ( which ,rightly or wrongly, does not fit with the modern narrative of who & what the sinn fein/ advanced nationalist movement was , or , indeed, what aspects of it are worth remembering & even celebrating, in terms of attitude, individuals or actions)

    The above mentioned strategy was based on the, overly optimistic, plan for there to be a round 3 whereby , following dail debate, dev , or a reinvigorated proxy team, would sweep in with a strong mandate to get a deal done and the UK side would be under external public pressure to make some concessions. This was even the expectation of Collins' own entourage ( broy, dalton etc.) during the talks

    Its only after the fact looking backwards through the civil war that cartoonish dev/ collins aspect stands out. Collins did not run the army. Collins and dev were not at each others throats. dev had little to do with the actual conflict proper of the civil war and collins, for obvious reasons, had nothing to do with the actions taken to bring it to an end.

    Sidenote: Much as it is of interest to me its a topic I tire of because SO MUCH of the stories and accounts and histography is patently cartoonished, to re-use the term, at best or downright fiction at worst. Especially anything to do with Collins who has a level of idolatory associated with him comparable with roman era carpenters from Gallilee.......which is annoying to me as there is much to be admired in him once you drill down to the smart , young, , contemplative but also quite ordinary rural, gaa loving, traditionalist , catholic lad in his early thirties....
    Last edited by Roberto Jordan; 6th December 2017 at 02:23 PM.
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  5. #25
    McTell McTell is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Congalltee View Post
    ////

    // Here’s its timeline:

    December
    Counter proposals are presented by the British and brought to Dublin for full consideration by the Cabinet in Dublin on 3 December. External association is stipulated as the plenipotentiaries’ default position in the negotiations to follow. The oath of allegiance, as worded in the British document, is rejected – even if the consequence is a resumption of war – while it is reiterated that no document can be signed without reference back to the Dáil.
    3 DecemberDe Valera visits counties Clare and Galway and makes speeches defining his republican position.
    4 DecemberDiscussion by both sides of the written Irish counter proposals. 5 DecemberA meeting is held between Lloyd George and Collins which discusses the proposed boundary commission in more detail.
    6 DecemberAn ultimatum is delivered by Lloyd George to the delegates in which they are faced with the option of either signing the text of the Treaty as it stands or refusing to sign and face the consequence of an immediate resumption of war. The ‘Articles of Agreement for a Treaty Between Great Britain and Ireland’ are signed by both delegations at 2.15am.
    8 DecemberDe Valera issues a public statement that he cannot recommend acceptance of the Treaty. The Cabinet decides by 4 votes to 3 to recommend the Treaty to the Dáil on 14 December.

    The vote on 3 December was also 4-3 in favour of the drafts.

    It was all signed on 6 December and referred back to the Dail, as requested, and as we know approved 64-57.

    The problem was that talks had been going on since July, and Dev had been told very clearly in July what was on the table. It was his and Collins' cue to reject the proposals in July, and not in December.

    Instead the talks ran on and on, died in September, and were revived in October, and Dev and Collins had plenty of time to say no we want a 32-county republic or nothing. But they didn't.

    Also they should have told us that we weren't going to get a 32-county republic. But they didn't.

    So not surprisingly when less than a 32-county republic was signed up for, many of us went thru the roof, but anyone who knew why the delays had gone on, with nothing to show for them, knew that a compromise was always on the cards.

    There's no point in blaming Griffith, and when the dust settled and he and Dev went for the presidency, he won by 60-58. A tiny majority, but the minority had nothing else to offer.

    Deals get done, and lots of people stand around wondering why their deal didn't get done. There's always a million reasons why one set of suggestions gets the signatures, and another doesn't. That's life, happens all the time, time to get over it.
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  6. #26
    Congalltee Congalltee is offline

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    So if Dave Davies made a deal in Brussels without sending May the final draft, that she should be told “deals get done, Parliament has the last word, just get over it”? Really?
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  7. #27
    McTell McTell is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Congalltee View Post
    So if Dave Davies made a deal in Brussels without sending May the final draft, that she should be told “deals get done, Parliament has the last word, just get over it”? Really?

    Yes, it has to be ratified by someone else, or a group, always.

    If the best that DD can do is a bad deal, then it's a hard brexit, which none of us want, and you may be sure there'll be a big row in the commons.

    Dev had described his team in 1921 as "plenipotentiaries", meaning they had full (pleni-) powers to sign anything. Don't big up your team and then disagree with them.

    But the reality was that they had nothing to offer, and everyone here was glad that the tan war was over.
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