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  1. #11
    ON THE ONE ROAD ON THE ONE ROAD is offline

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    he was a dual monarchist. The oath wasn't offensive to him.


    but fair play on the concept. the should dev have gone instead of collins is a dull what if. Collins was head of the IRB, they viewed themselves at the legitimate authority of ireland, find it hard to believe he was made go. Dev and collins while different personalities do not appear to have much difference on how they wanted the country to turn out. A should griffith have gone is a lot more interesting what if.
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  2. #12
    pinemartin pinemartin is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breanainn View Post
    I'd suggest Dev never travelled himself because he knew Lloyd George would never recognise an Irish Republic, also that any hope of obtaining the Six Counties had formally vanished with the Government of Ireland Act, so dispatched the plenipotentiaries to be the fall guys.
    That narrative is just for children and blue shirts, anyone with even a basic reading of history or an understanding of how politicians act would know that that fairy story is not credible.

    Are you saying that a cunning, manipulative and able politician like Dev would decide that he no longer would be the supreme leader and he then decides that his only course of action is to withdraw from talks and hand political power to Collins and Griffith? Collins in your narrative would then be free to sign the treaty and then assume political power.

    Griffith fatally undermined the Irish delegation's plan to collapse the talks (if the talks needed to be collapsed) over the six counties by doing a secret side deal with George.
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  3. #13
    Congalltee Congalltee is offline

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    On Dev:
    1) why did he include the word “plenipotentiary” when he instructed Griffith et al to revert to Dublin?
    2) why did he only have 7 in the Cabinet?
    3) why were only 3 of them sound on oaths, ports, partitition and odious debts?
    4) why did he allow a dual monarchist head a delegation?
    And the big one...
    5) what would he have done, if Griffith had phoned Strand House that night and asked if it was real or no deal? Would he have to do Teresa May, sideline his Davis and Boris and led the talks himself?
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  4. #14
    Congalltee Congalltee is offline

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    It’s interesting that Teresa May interrupted her lunch with the president of the EU council so that a minority party representing 250,000 people could hold up a trade deal for 500m, but Griffith signed without recourse to his president, representing the entire Irish nation who had explicitly directed him not to sign without reverting.
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  5. #15
    Congalltee Congalltee is offline

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    What time of day/night was the threat of immediate and terrible war?
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  6. #16
    Civic_critic2 Civic_critic2 is online now

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    It looks like a coup. Followed up by a century of propaganda by the winners to rationalise it as the most reasonable and correct position and the population, pummeled by this in the media and education system, have swallowed it.

    Someone mentioned a while ago that while much is made of Collins arriving late for the handover as a final 'fk you' to the British, in actual fact himself and the others went into a private room in Dublin Castle around the same time and kneeled down in an act of obesiance and fidelity to the English crown. Is this true, that this happened in this way? So much for the whole arriving late propaganda, possibly peddled to divert from the other more appalling action.
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  7. #17
    Congalltee Congalltee is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Civic_critic2 View Post
    It looks like a coup. Followed up by a century of propaganda by the winners to rationalise it as the most reasonable and correct position and the population, pummeled by this in the media and education system, have swallowed it.

    Someone mentioned a while ago that while much is made of Collins arriving late for the handover as a final 'fk you' to the British, in actual fact himself and the others went into a private room in Dublin Castle around the same time and kneeled down in an act of obesiance and fidelity to the English crown. Is this true, that this happened in this way? So much for the whole arriving late propaganda, possibly peddled to divert from the other more appalling action.
    The first paragraph may have some truth in it. Imagine waking up 96 years ago to fu d that the president had been ignored and an oath to George was necessary for dominion status of a partitioned “State”, with ports controlled by London but huge debts to be borne by the new dominion state.

    The second paragraph seems like nonsense.
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  8. #18
    Civic_critic2 Civic_critic2 is online now

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    That time was very strange, with a provisional government that operated without a parliament or being responsible to any parliament from Jan - Sept 1922. Looks like a coup. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provis...Ireland_(1922)

    Here's a couple of accounts of that time Collins arrived in Dublin Castle:
    "Fitzalan, the first Catholic Lord Lieutenant since the reign of King James II then took Collins on an impromptu and largely irrelevant tour of the facility pointing out which keys opened which doors, before absenting himself and leaving Collins, literally, holding the fort."
    https://mylesdungan.com/2015/01/16/o...-january-1922/

    'Irrelevant tour' sounds like the kind of blarney that may cover just such an incident.

    The legal standing of the provisional government, the 1st Dáil and the 2nd Dáil is all unclear, a real study in how the British use a combination of military action and legal and democratic theatre to change facts on the ground to what they want and give legitimacy and buy-in to them over a period of several years. But legally the provisional government was apparently unconnected to any parliament from Jan 1922 - Sept 1922 and so therefore the requirement for some oath of fidelity at the handover would not be at all unthinkable.

    [At half past 1] members of the Provisional Government went in a body to the Castle, where they were received by Lord FitzAlan, the Lord Lieutenant. Mr. Michael Collins produced a copy of the Treaty, on which the acceptance of its provisions by himself and his colleagues was endorsed. The existence and authority of the Provisional Government were then formally and officially acknowledged, and they were informed that the British Government would be immediately communicated with in order that the necessary steps might be taken for the transfer to the Provisional Government of the powers and machinery requisite for the discharge of its duties. The Lord Lieutenant congratulated ... expressed the earnest hope that under their auspices the ideal of a happy, free, and prosperous Ireland would be attained...The proceedings were held in private, and lasted for 55 minutes, and at the conclusion the heads of the principal administrative departments were presented to the members of the Provisional Government
    In the Council Chamber at Dublin Castle this afternoon His Excellency the Lord Lieutenant received Mr. Michael Collins as the head of the Provisional Government provided for in Article 17 of the Treaty of December 6. Mr. Collins handed to the Lord Lieutenant a copy of the Treaty, on which the acceptance of its provisions by himself and his colleagues had been endorsed and other members of the Provisional Government were then introduced. The Lord Lieutenant congratulated. Mr. Collins and his colleagues and informed them that they were now duly installed as the Provisional Government and that in conformity with Article 17 of the Treaty, he would at once communicate with the British Government, in order that the necessary steps might be taken for the transfer to the Provisional Government of the powers and machinery requisite for the discharge of its duties.
    Plenty of room in there for what was stated to have occurred, the authority of the provisional government was "formally and officially acknowledged"; in British terms this generally means a lot of pomp and garters and no shortage of verbal lickarsing.

    In true modern Adams style, riding on an ambiguity that was to set the tone for the lack of straightforwardness that was a hallmark of occupation and whose continuation has hugely damaged our country for a century, Collins issued the following statement on taking over the Castle:
    "The members of the Provisional Government of Ireland received the surrender of Dublin Castle at 1.45 p.m. today."
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  9. #19
    ant ant is offline
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    If Britain truly refused to recognise the Irish Republic/Dáil Éireann...who were they signing a treaty with?

    ...The pen should't have touched the paper.
    Last edited by ant; 6th December 2017 at 11:53 AM.
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  10. #20
    RasherHash RasherHash is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Breanainn View Post
    I'd suggest Dev never travelled himself because he knew Lloyd George would never recognise an Irish Republic, also that any hope of obtaining the Six Counties had formally vanished with the Government of Ireland Act, so dispatched the plenipotentiaries to be the fall guys.

    Admittedly, it's unlikely that Lloyd George would have resumed the War after five months of cessations, but the Treaty was arguably the best deal that could have been secured at that historical juncture, and Dev just wanted to avoid the responsibility for that fact.
    Churchill had one of his mad plans to take the major towns using aerial bombardment if necessary, I think to imagine the imperialists were not up to drumming up a war is naive.
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