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  1. #111
    Talk Back Talk Back is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweet Darling View Post
    Following general election was voted on by the people on a pro/anti treaty line. Dev had to snuggle up to Collins to make sure he was relected
    You shouldn't be posting about things as if you knew what you are on about - when you clearly do not know what you are on about.
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  2. #112
    Eoin Coir Eoin Coir is offline
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    All Devileire was concerned about was being in USA to collect money to enrich himself & his family who benefit to this very day
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  3. #113
    Eire1976 Eire1976 is offline
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    No. 176 NAI DE 2/304/1

    Arthur Griffith to Eamon de Valera (Dublin)
    (No. 7)

    London, 24 October 1921

    A Chara,
    Miceal and I were asked to see Lloyd George and Chamberlain this evening at the conclusion of the Conference.

    They talked freely - Chamberlain frankly. The burden of their story was that on the Crown they must fight. It was the only link of Empire they possessed.

    They pressed me to say that I would accept the Crown provided we came to other agreements. It was evident they wanted something to reassure themselves against the Die-Hards. I told them that I had no authority. If we came to an agreement on all other points I could recommend some form of association with the Crown. Conversation ranged over the document.1 They said it was impossible for them to accept our proposal re League of Nations and U.S.A. guaranteeing Ireland's freedom.

    Question of elective Head arose. They shied at it. Wholly impossible to them.

    Told them the only possibility of Ireland considering association of any kind with Crown was in exchange for essential unity - a concession to Ulster.

    Miceal got Chamberlain to admit that the general feeling in England was for a settlement. He countered their arguments on defence etc. all the time. But they always fell back on the impossibility of peace except on acceptance of Crown.

    We agreed to proceed on basis of settling all other points, leaving Crown to last.

    Meet again at 4 to-morrow.

    Art Ó Gríobhth

    .................................................. ...........................................

    And Devs reply

    No. 177 NAI DE 2/304/1

    Memorandum from Eamon de Valera to Arthur Griffith (London)
    (No. 7) (Copy)

    Dublin, 25 October 1921

    I received the minutes of the Seventh Session and your letter of the 24th.1 We are all here at one that there can be no question of our asking the Irish people to enter an arrangement which would make them subject to the Crown, or demand from them allegiance to the British King. If war is the alternative, we can only face it, and I think that the sooner the other side is made to realise that the better.

    As time is so pressing the Ulster question should be pushed ahead at once, and the moment they can be sounded upon that the big question should be put up to them at once. It ought to come, I think, before the end of this week.

    MUNITIONS: We had a chat with the M.F.2 on Saturday and Sunday - I suppose he told you the result. We agreed that an undertaking might be given that in order to meet them we would not import munitions during the continuance of the negotiations, altho' we did not consider ourselves bound to do this in accordance with the truce terms.

    MY GOING TO LONDON: The M.F. told us that there was a general desire amongst the members of the Delegation that I should hold myself in readiness to go to London. You understand fully the considerations of tactical advantage which determined me in holding the view that I should remain here. If any new considerations arise it would be well that we should know them exactly so that we may weigh them all and if possible secure unanimity for whatever action is taken. My own position is that I am loathe to go unless the situation imperatively calls for it, and I am keeping an open mind. I have asked the others to do the same.

    (signed) E. de V.

    P.S. I hope to receive text of the counterproposals put forward by our side tomorrow.

    1 No. 176, minutes not printed. A note by Robert Barton on a copy of this memorandum in the UCDA (P150/1923) reads 'the first paragraph of this letter created a scene', with Arthur Griffith, Michael Collins, and Eamon Duggan being 'very angry'. The letter was received on the morning of 27 October but not shown to Gavan Duffy or Robert Barton until the evening.

    2 3 Minister for Finance, i.e. Michael Collins.


    So Dev did offer to go to the talks.
    Last edited by Eire1976; 3rd January 2018 at 10:06 PM.
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  4. #114
    Eoin Coir Eoin Coir is offline
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    deVileire always had a leg in both camps.
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  5. #115
    DrNightdub DrNightdub is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eire1976 View Post
    Ernie O Malley who was on the supreme council of the IRB stated many times that Mick pushed the IRB men to vote for the Treaty.
    While O'Malley states in "On Another Man's Wound" that he had sworn the IRB oath, there is no evidence he was on the Supreme Council. Nothing in "No Other Law", nothing in "Revolutionary Underground", nothing in either of his own memoirs.

    In fact, Liam Lynch, who WAS on the SC, wrote to Florence O'Donoghue that he had "stood alone" at the SC meeting in question in opposing the Treaty ("No Other Law", p190). If O'Malley was on the SC, he'd hardly have left Lynch stand alone, would he?

    Harry Boland was also on the SC, though he was in the USA when the Dec 1921 meeting happened. But presumably he took the SC circular at face value and voted on the Treaty as he saw fit - he voted against.
    Last edited by DrNightdub; 4th January 2018 at 12:20 AM.
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  6. #116
    Eire1976 Eire1976 is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNightdub View Post
    While O'Malley states in "On Another Man's Wound" that he had sworn the IRB oath, there is no evidence he was on the Supreme Council. Nothing in "No Other Law", nothing in "Revolutionary Underground", nothing in either of his own memoirs.

    In fact, Liam Lynch, who WAS on the SC, wrote to Florence O'Donoghue that he had "stood alone" at the SC meeting in question in opposing the Treaty ("No
    Other Law", p190). If O'Malley was on the SC, he'd hardly have left Lynch stand alone, would he?

    Harry Boland was also on the SC, though he was in the USA when the Dec 1921 meeting happened. But presumably he took the SC circular at face value and voted on the Treaty as he saw fit - he voted against.
    Here's an extract from Green against Green

    https://books.google.no/books?id=BO3...%20irb&f=false

    I don't know for certain where I saw the reference that O'Malley was in the IRB.
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  7. #117
    Eire1976 Eire1976 is offline
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    Just read cabinet minutes from 8th December - Dev very mad. stated that M.C told him not to go to London.

    News to me and changes matters considerably

    Cabinet Meeting of December 8, 1921, copy of notes taken by Erskine Childers from Cabinet minutes by Erskine Childers - 08 December 1921 - Documents on IRISH FOREIGN POLICY
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  8. #118
    DrNightdub DrNightdub is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eire1976 View Post
    Here's an extract from Green against Green
    https://books.google.no/books?id=BO3...%20irb&f=false.
    The page previous to the one you linked to says "Far from acting as a strong controlling influence, the IRB disintegrated over the Treaty."

    Quote Originally Posted by Eire1976 View Post
    I don't know for certain where I saw the reference that O'Malley was in the IRB.
    No-one's challenging his membership of the IRB, as I said above he himself said he was a member. However, his supposed membership of the Supreme Council is another matter entirely.
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  9. #119
    Nedz Newt Nedz Newt is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcolm Redfellow View Post
    Poncification:


    As I understand it, our appreciation of upwardly-mobile de Valera (as he was rapidly renamed by amending that New Jersey birth-record for "George de Valero") should start with his release from Lewes Gaol in 1917.

    So rapidly did this occur, that it occured in during his childhood, not during (or just before) his political career.
    But expand on the political significance of that change of vowel, as you see it.
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  10. #120
    McTell McTell is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNightdub View Post
    ///

    Harry Boland was also on the SC, though he was in the USA when the Dec 1921 meeting happened. But presumably he took the SC circular at face value and voted on the Treaty as he saw fit - he voted against.

    He was entitled to do that, but we can say now that all those involved, Collins, Dev and anyone in between, had made a total hames of it from June 1921 onwards.

    Sadly we were stuck with them, when they should all have realised that they had barely a notion of running a country. The whole saga reminds me of Lenihan junior and his hopes to "learn on the job" as finance minister. Thanks guys.
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