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  1. #21
    parentheses parentheses is offline
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    I read somewhere that in 1922 the British stipulated that land annuities from the Free State had to be paid to Britain.

    But in Northern Ireland the British allowed the Orange government to keep the money to spend domestically. Another example of discrimination if true.
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  2. #22
    Catalpast Catalpast is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by parentheses View Post
    I read somewhere that in 1922 the British stipulated that land annuities from the Free State had to be paid to Britain.

    But in Northern Ireland the British allowed the Orange government to keep the money to spend domestically. Another example of discrimination if true.
    Link please or its meaningless...
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  3. #23
    Catalpast Catalpast is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by between the bridges View Post
    Was it the biggest brown envelope in the history of the free state...
    No - we paid nothing...
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catalpast View Post
    Link please or its meaningless...
    Those guys who negotiated the treaty must have been a bunch of idiots. British made rings around them

    The 1920 Government of Ireland Act allowed for the respective governments of Northern and Southern Ireland to retain the annuities; this obviously never came into force in the south, but remained the position in Northern Ireland. Under Article 5 of the 1921 Anglo-Irish Treaty, annuities were included as part of what the Irish Free State would pay to service the United Kingdom public debt. In 1923 the Free State government agreed to collect annuities from tenants and pay them into the British land purchase fund.
    History Ireland
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  5. #25
    Catalpast Catalpast is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by parentheses View Post
    Those guys who negotiated the treaty must have been a bunch of idiots. British made rings around them



    History Ireland
    What would you have done different if you were in their shoes?
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  6. #26
    McTell McTell is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catalpast View Post
    What would you have done different if you were in their shoes?

    It gets back to my belated opinion, that took years to work out, that we didn't win a war in 1919-21. We had made a nuisance of ourselves and home rule was upgraded to dominion status.

    Also our patriots were lousy at money, and assumed that when the brits were kicked out we would all be richer. In fact they had been subbing us since 1908. Taxes had to go up, and the first border customs posts were set up by us, not by NI.

    Debt is different from land annuities, as it was a percentage of the UK public debt. Annuities were deals between the farmer and the Land commission, backed by Land Bonds that were guaranteed by the Govt. (otherwise nobody would have bought them!)

    So what would I do different? Dunno. But Collins, Dev and Cosgrave didn't do their sums.
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  7. #27
    McTell McTell is offline
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    ...as for the border / 6 counties swapped for 150m and loyal to the half crown argument -

    We were swapping the debt for the boundary commission deal, which wasn't going to give much of NI to the IFS.

    Not Tyrone, Derry city and fermanagh, as many expected. Just a few wiggles and bumps, of mostly worthless hillside.

    So on balance Cosgrave did a great deal, but it came 4 years late, and was a bit of a lucky accident.
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  8. #28
    Catalpast Catalpast is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by McTell View Post
    It gets back to my belated opinion, that took years to work out, that we didn't win a war in 1919-21. We had made a nuisance of ourselves and home rule was upgraded to dominion status.

    Also our patriots were lousy at money, and assumed that when the brits were kicked out we would all be richer. In fact they had been subbing us since 1908. Taxes had to go up, and the first border customs posts were set up by us, not by NI.

    Debt is different from land annuities, as it was a percentage of the UK public debt. Annuities were deals between the farmer and the Land commission, backed by Land Bonds that were guaranteed by the Govt. (otherwise nobody would have bought them!)

    So what would I do different? Dunno. But Collins, Dev and Cosgrave didn't do their sums.
    Well I beg to differ

    We won a partial victory in 1921

    The Tragedy is the British Government would have conceded on the Oath if the Irish Delegation had shown a bit more backbone

    They would not have conceded an Ireland outside of the Commonwealth at that stage
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  9. #29
    parentheses parentheses is offline
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    Why did the Irish signatories of the treaty not insist that the Free State government would be allowed spend land annuities domestically rather than pay them to London?
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  10. #30
    McTell McTell is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by parentheses View Post
    Why did the Irish signatories of the treaty not insist that the Free State government would be allowed spend land annuities domestically rather than pay them to London?

    Answers above... annuities were government guaranteed, but not government "public debt".

    London expected us to take on their guarantee, as it related to land that was now under our control.
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