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  1. #11
    darkhorse darkhorse is online now
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    1921 is when we agreed to partition in the first place
    are we going to allow that again when we also have the upper hand in negotiations
    Hopefully not
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  2. #12
    Bleu Poppy Bleu Poppy is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by parentheses View Post
    But the British still demanded the land annuities
    The land annuities were personal debts taken on by individual farmers when they, in effect, took out loans funded by the Exchequer in London. The agency in Dublin simply channeled the monies paid by the landholders to meet their obligations through to where the monies had originated from.

    When De Valera declared his Economic War the annuity debts continued to be collected from the farmers by his government- but he did not funnel the monies through to London.... the British retaliation bankrupted many a 'strong farmer' who could not export their produce to the U.K., which was probably a side effect desired by that thin string of misery.
    Last edited by Bleu Poppy; 2nd December 2017 at 02:19 AM.
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  3. #13
    Bleu Poppy Bleu Poppy is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferdia View Post
    Essentially, Cosgrave and the Free Staters sold the 6 Counties to the Brits in return for a huge write down in the Free State's acceptance of a share of the UK national debt. Fúckers made a balls of the whole thing.
    Actually, the six counties had been taken out of the equation long before the treaty negotiations had even begun. And the Northern Irish government exercised the provisions in The Treaty to opt-out of the Free State in accordance with the time-frame set out in the document.

    The debt negotiations, and the absolving of the Free State from the obligations in The Treaty, is yet another example of the December, 1921 document giving the freedom to achieve freedom- as Michael Collins predicted. Ar dheis Dé go raibh a h-anam dhílis 's crógach.
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  4. #14
    Bleu Poppy Bleu Poppy is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by hiding behind a poster View Post
    Any chance you might point out where in the article, or indeed anywhere else, it says that the 6 counties were on offer if Ireland accepted its share of the debt?
    He's a typical 'Fake Newser'!
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  5. #15
    Ardillaun Ardillaun is offline

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    Large parts of Western NI should have gone South in the Boundary Commission findings. Instead, they ended up wanting to take a piece of Donegal. Ultimately, that bit them in the Londonderry Air but at the time it looked like a shmart stroke. Cosgrave was in a very tough spot and made the right decision IMO.
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  6. #16
    Congalltee Congalltee is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bleu Poppy View Post
    Actually, the six counties had been taken out of the equation long before the treaty negotiations had even begun. And the Northern Irish government exercised the provisions in The Treaty to opt-out of the Free State in accordance with the time-frame set out in the document.

    The debt negotiations, and the absolving of the Free State from the obligations in The Treaty, is yet another example of the December, 1921 document giving the freedom to achieve freedom- as Michael Collins predicted. Ar dheis Dé go raibh a h-anam dhílis 's crógach.
    If the Treaty deal was so good, why did Griffith and his underlings defy the clearest of clear instructions?
    2. It is understood before decisions are finally reached on a main question, that a dispatch will be sent to members of the cabinet in Dublin, and that a reply will be awaited by the plenipotentiaries before final decision is made.
    3. It is also understood that the complete text of the draft treaty about to be signed will similarly be submitted to Dublin and a reply awaited.
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  7. #17
    Catalpast Catalpast is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by McTell View Post
    A fantabulous anniversary of the Irish-Uk financial split in 1925.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/...nion-1.3311186


    Signed on this day. If you like round numbers like 100th anniversary, you're out of luck. It's a 92nd on this thread, and if you have a unusual fixation about 92nd anniversaries, then this one's for you.

    Something to do with the border, and us not being able to pay some money, so we agreed that the 6 counties border was the same as it was in 1920, and nice Mr Baldwin said we didn't owe him any money at all, at all, and could buy some sweets on our way home. But we had to pay for all the damage we caused while we were winning the war of independence.

    Then a lot of people in the 6 counties were raging because they wanted to be in the Free State, but they didn't want to move to the Free State, they wanted the Free State to move to them.


    Paper /pdf by Sean Kenny and John FitzGerald, son of Garret the good, grandson of Desmond the probably just as good.


    'Till Debt Do Us Part': Financial Implications of the Divorce of the Irish Free State from the UK, 1922-6

    'Till Debt Do Us Part' - Lund University
    When Cosgrave returned and addressed the Free State Parliament he stated that :

    The PRESIDENT:
    Article 5 provided that the Irish Free State should assume liability for a proportion of the service of the public debt of the United Kingdom and war pensions, as existing at the date of the Treaty, due regard being had to any just claims on the part of the Irish Free State by way of set-off or counter-claim. If agreement as to the amount of the liability could not be reached, the matter was to be submitted to arbitration. Now the amount of the British National Debt at the time of the signing of the Treaty stood at the enormous figure of £7,000 odd millions. As long as our liability remained undetermined this Article hung over us as a menace to our credit, a hindrance to borrowing for development, a deterrent to our business expansion and a not unlikely cause of friction between the two countries.
    I would hesitate to make any forecast as to the amount of what our ascertained liability would be, if our case and the case of the British Government had been laid before an arbitrator in cold figures, an arbitrator who was bound to interpret those figures and those claims in the strict and rigid atmosphere of international finance. Suffice it to say that others who have entered into the realm of prophecy on this subject have arrived at figures varying from an annual payment of £5,000,000 to a claim for an annual tribute of £19,000,000.


    The PRESIDENT: I had only one figure in my mind and that was a huge nought. That was the figure I strove to get, and I got it.


    Mr. CORISH: And you gave five millions for it.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20110607...512070003.html


    My understanding is that none of this was ever paid anyway

    Under the circumstances Cosgrave salvaged something from the Boundary Commission fiasco

    - he got rid of that hefty burden from hanging over the National Exchequer

    A face saving exercise if you will

    As for the Catholics in the North as best I can see the general opinion there was not really a lot that could be done for them short of opening old wounds again

    - in which scenario they would inevitably be the ones to suffer the most...

    Not saying that was the correct response but Realpolitik played a central role in how Cosgrave played it out 92 years ago
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  8. #18
    owedtojoy owedtojoy is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Congalltee View Post
    If the Treaty deal was so good, why did Griffith and his underlings defy the clearest of clear instructions?
    Here we go again.

    Dust off "Document No 2" there, and have a read of Dev's "Alternative Treaty".
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  9. #19
    Congalltee Congalltee is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by owedtojoy View Post
    Here we go again.
    .
    It’ll go nowhere.
    There will be deflection, reliance on legalism, and whimpering about intimidation of resumption of war. But no answer as to why the delegation breached very clear directions.
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  10. #20
    between the bridges between the bridges is offline
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    Was it the biggest brown envelope in the history of the free state...
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