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  1. #161
    IvoShandor IvoShandor is online now
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    Quote Originally Posted by making waves View Post
    Stalinism came into existence as a counter-revolutionary movement because of the failure of the revolutionary movements in Western Europe - every single Bolshevik knew that the workers state would face counter-revolution unless a workers state was established in an advanced capitalist country to help Russia industrialise. The only question posed was not whether a counter-revolution would occur - but what character the counter-revolution would take - and it took the form of the emergence of a bureaucracy around Stalin (predominantly made up of former Tsarist administrators, NEPmen and elements of the peasantry - and some anarchists thrown in for good measure).
    So here we go again. Excuses, excuses.All the faults that led to Stalinism came from outside....not too different from the excuses that the Stalinists themselves employed when they tried to backtrack or explain away something. "Bad elements" had infiltrated the OGPU and they were responsible for the "excesses". It won't wash. Tsarists or NEP men indeed!The Bad Elements were there from the start, as I pointed out above in connection with the OGPU hierarchy. This was the USSR not 'Invasion of the Body snatchers' where one day in 1928 (or 1925) loads of these good Bolsheviks went to sleep and in the morning had been replaced by Bad'Uns.
    Lets look at Stalin's thuggish friends and instruments themselves. Kaganovich:joined the Bolshevik Part in 1911. Molotov-a member of the group that launched the October coup. Beria-joined the Cheka in 1920. Vassily Blokhin, the butcher of Katyn-joined the Cheka in 1921. Frinovsky-deputy head of the OGPU-fought in Moscow in 1917.Ulrikh of the show trials, another young chekist. Zhandov joined the Bolsheviks in 1915. Redens went to work for the Cheka in 1918. etc etc etc

    Quote Originally Posted by making waves View Post
    Yet you continue to ignore the fact that Rosa Luxemburg wrote her piece in 100% support of the Russian Revolution, the Workers State and the Bolshevik Party.
    What matters is that her prediction came true.

    Quote Originally Posted by making waves View Post
    There were none of the 'the otiginal revolutionaries' in the Kronstadt Rebellion in 1921 - and it is worth noting that over half the Baltic fleet in Kronstadt during the rebellion did not participate and a section of the remainder actually fought with the Red Army.
    I've heard it claimed that many of the Kronstadt sailors were not the original intake of 1918...but none!

    Quote Originally Posted by making waves View Post
    Paul Avrich, Kronstadt 1921 (Moscow, 2001)
    Ah Ha!

    But, in any case, nobody outside doctrinaire Leninists and Trotskyists accepts the central premise of this debate, that the sailors and workers of Kronstadt only had rights as long as they could be seen as the original intake. This is the Communist orthodoxy-and it's the same whether Leninist or Stalinist-that only the workers and sailors count, that peasants or people of peasant origin are inferior, that they didn't have a right to protest and appeal against the authoritarian nature of the Bolshevik regime. Your whole argument stinks of this manichean, condescending dogma. No wonder the Communists,not just the Stalinist faction, found it tolerable to let 5-7 million people starve in 1933. They were only peasants after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by making waves View Post
    and you can provide evidence with sources for this assertion (and not wikipedia)
    Like Gavril Myasnikov, for a start.
    Last edited by IvoShandor; 15th November 2017 at 07:32 PM.
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  2. #162
    making waves making waves is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by IvoShandor View Post
    So here we go again. Wriggling out of it. All the faults that led to Stalinism came from outside....not too different from the excuses that the Stalinists themselves employed when they tried to backtrack or explain away something. "Bad elements" had infiltrated the OGPU and they were responsible for the "excesses". It won't wash. Tsarists or NEP men indeed!The Bad Elements were there from the start, as I pointed out above in connection with the OGPU hierarchy. This was the USSR not 'Invasion of the Body snatchers' where one day in 1928 (or 1925) loads of these good Bolsheviks went to sleep and in the morning had been replaced by Bad'Uns.
    if you are actually going to make an argument then you should do it on the basis of what I actually wrote - not on what you think I should write.

    Quote Originally Posted by IvoShandor View Post
    Lets look at Stalin's thuggish friends and instruments themselves. Kaganovich:joined the Bolshevik Part in 1911. Molotov-a member of the group that launched the October coup. Beria-joined the Cheka in 1920. Vassily Blokhin, the butcher of Katyn-joined the Cheka in 1921. Frinovsky-deputy head of the OGPU-fought in Moscow in 1917.Ulrikh of the show trials, another young chekist. Zhandov joined the Bolsheviks in 1915. Redens went to work for the Cheka in 1918. etc etc etc
    Lets look at the leadership of the Bolshevik Party in 1917 - and see how many the Stalinists actually executed/assassinated/murdered/forced into suicide on the basis that they were traitors to the revolution and in league with the fascists and the imperialists -



    Quote Originally Posted by IvoShandor View Post
    I've heard it claimed that many of the Kronstadt sailors were not the original intake of 1918...but none!
    But, in any case, nobody outside doctrinare Leninists accepts the central premise of this debate, that the sailors and workers of Kronstadt only had rights as long as they could be seen as the original intake. This is the Communist orthodoxy-and it's the same whether Leninist or Stalinist-that only the workers and sailors count, that peasants or people of peasant origin are inferior, that they didn't have a right to protest and appeal against the authoritarian nature of the Bolshevik regime. Your whole argument stinks of this manichean, condescending dogma.
    The Kronstadt Rebellion 1921 was a rebellion orchestrated by the Whites and financed by the French government. The Kronstadt sailors of 1917 had joined the Red Army with large numbers actually being killed by the White Army during the civil war. The 1921 Rebellion was designed to undermine the workers state at the behest of the counter-revolutionaries and the Imperialist powers. Half of the sailors in the fleet did not participate in the Rebellion and many others supported the Red Army during the Rebellion (with the Whites shooting them for not supporting the rebellion). Before the Red Army ever entered Kronstadt the workers in the city rose up against the rebels.

    This is all documented, it is available in the Russian archives and it is outlined in the three sources I referenced above - of course, again, when you are presented with the facts, and sources to back them up, you conveniently ignore them.

    Quote Originally Posted by IvoShandor View Post
    Like Gavril Myasnikov, for a start.
    So you toss out a name - with what purpose?
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  3. #163
    Jezza15 Jezza15 is offline

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    There was a revolution in Russia 100 years & eight months ago, which was crushed by a counter revolution 100 years ago. Marxists are tools of the global elite. I recall the nasty right-wing columnist Taki quoting a global-rich guy "I get on fine with Marxists. They always deliver on a deal because they really know how to control people".

    Ask yourself why so many top-drawer elitists are so cosy with leftism/marxism/SJWs.
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  4. #164
    IvoShandor IvoShandor is online now
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    Quote Originally Posted by making waves View Post
    Stalinism came into existence as a counter-revolutionary movement because of the failure of the revolutionary movements in Western Europe - every single Bolshevik knew that the workers state would face counter-revolution unless a workers state was established in an advanced capitalist country to help Russia industrialise. The only question posed was not whether a counter-revolution would occur - but what character the counter-revolution would take - and it took the form of the emergence of a bureaucracy around Stalin (predominantly made up of former Tsarist administrators, NEPmen and elements of the peasantry - and some anarchists thrown in for good measure).
    Quote Originally Posted by making waves View Post
    if you are actually going to make an argument then you should do it on the basis of what I actually wrote - not on what you think I should write.

    This is your own post.

    And posting pictures of executed Old Bolsheviks doesn't negate my post, my point:that there were large numbers of OBs who supported Stalin and were dedicated to repression;that terror used against anybody was a real -you could call it a legitimate strand-right from the start. Stalin didn't have to go to Mars to get people that were ready to work with him. These people who were shot were not heroes and many of then only objected to the machinery of repression when they were ground under it's gears. What did many of the OBs have to say about the 'Menshevik Trial' or the 'Industrial Party' trial? What did Trotsky have to say? Rykov and Bukharin:they objected to the deportation of a million "kulaks", the famine in the Ukraine and elsewhere that took 5 million lives, didn't they? Well, didn't they?

    Quote Originally Posted by making waves View Post
    The Kronstadt Rebellion 1921 was a rebellion orchestrated by the Whites and financed by the French government. The Kronstadt sailors of 1917 had joined the Red Army with large numbers actually being killed by the White Army during the civil war. The 1921 Rebellion was designed to undermine the workers state at the behest of the counter-revolutionaries and the Imperialist powers. Half of the sailors in the fleet did not participate in the Rebellion and many others supported the Red Army during the Rebellion (with the Whites shooting them for not supporting the rebellion). Before the Red Army ever entered Kronstadt the workers in the city rose up against the rebels.
    Blah blah blah. Lets hear what Paul Avrich said
    "... the rising bore the earmarks of spontaneity... there was little in the behaviour of the rebels to suggest any careful advance preparation. Had there been a prearranged plan, surely the sailors would have waited a few weeks longer for the ice to melt... The rebels, moreover, allowed Kalinin to return to Petrograd, though he would have made a valuable hostage. Further, no attempt was made to take the offensive... Significant too, is the large number of Communists who took part in the movement.(...)
    The Sailors needed no outside encouragement to raise the banner of insurrection... Kronstadt was clearly ripe for a rebellion. What set it off was not the machination of emigre conspirators and foreign intelligence agents but the wave of peasant risings throughout the country and the labour disturbances in neighboring Petrograd. And as the revolt unfolded, it followed the pattern of earlier outbursts against the central government from 1905 through the Civil War."

    "Significant too, is the large number of Communists who took part in the movement".
    Hundreds of whom tore up their Party cards according to Orlando Figes

    Quote Originally Posted by making waves View Post
    So you toss out a name - with what purpose?
    Oh? And I thought you were so well-informed you were bound to know who he was. Gavril Myasnikov was expelled from the Party , arrested and imprisoned for being at odds with the leadership.
    Then there were the Philosophers Ships, which I mentioned before. People arrested and exiled for holding views incompatible with the Bolshevik world view.
    Last edited by IvoShandor; 15th November 2017 at 08:17 PM.
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  5. #165
    making waves making waves is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by IvoShandor View Post
    This is your own post.
    The post is accurate - the Bolsheviks recruited large numbers of former Tsarist officials to run the administration of the new workers state - most of the population were illiterate and couldn't carry out the administrative tasks of the government. For example - in the city of Vyatka (now known as Kirov) out of 4,766 administrative officials in the city after the revolution, 4,476 were the same individuals who worked for the Tsarist regime. When Stalin took charge of the administration of the government he bribed these individuals with privilages, in part to keep them as employees, in part to build up a power base for himself and his supporters within the government.

    Quote Originally Posted by IvoShandor View Post
    And posting pictures of executed Old Bolsheviks doesn't negate my post, my point:that there were large numbers of OBs who supported Stalin and were dedicated to repression;that terror used against anybody was a real -you could call it a legitimate strand-right from the start. Stalin didn't have to go to Mars to get people that were ready to work with him.
    There were approx 23,000 Bolsheviks at the time of the February Revolution - a large number of these were killed fighting during the civil war. But it would be astonishing if Stalin did not have some supporters within the Bolshevik party that he could lean on for a power base in the post-revolution period. Furthermore, Stalin played a prominent (if somewhat dubious) role in the civil war and it was during the war that he developed links with some of his closest allies that went on to lead the bureaucratic structures (people like Voroshilov and Budyonny). Again this is not a surprise - friendships and alliances forged in as vicious a conflict as the Russian civil war tend to be lasting and loyal.

    But this again is a side issue to the general point that the repression implement by the Soviet government was in direct response to the brutality of the Whites and the Imperialist armies. Stalin believed in terror for the sake of it - that terror was progressive - but his was largely alone in this view, the Bolshevik leadership imposed repression out of necessity, unlike the Whites and the Imperialists who engaged in repression for the sake of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by IvoShandor View Post
    What did many of the OBs have to say about the 'Menshevik Trial' or the 'Industrial Party' trial? What did Trotsky have to say?
    Trotsky wrote extensively about the Mensheviks - their role in helping the Stalinists into power, their role in attacking the Left Opposition when it was confronting the early stages of the Stalinist counter-revolution, the use by Stalin of their support base among the peasantry, the warning that the Stalinists would turn on them when they became a threat.

    Quote Originally Posted by IvoShandor View Post
    Rykov and Bukharin:they objected to the deportation of a million "kulaks", the famine in the Ukraine and elsewhere that took 5 million lives, didn't they? Well, didn't they?
    Rykov and Bukharin were the main advocates of the interests of the kulaks within the Communist Party - it was the reason that the Stalinists made alliances with Rykov and Bukharin during the political battle with the Left Opposition.

    As for Trotsky - let's let him speak for himself
    Nowhere else did repressions, purges, suppressions, and all other kinds of bureaucratic hooliganism in general acquire such horrifying scope as in Ukraine, in the struggle against powerful forces concealed in the Ukrainian masses that desired more freedom and independence.
    Quote Originally Posted by IvoShandor View Post
    Blah blah blah. Lets hear what Paul Avrich said
    "... the rising bore the earmarks of spontaneity... there was little in the behaviour of the rebels to suggest any careful advance preparation. Had there been a prearranged plan, surely the sailors would have waited a few weeks longer for the ice to melt... The rebels, moreover, allowed Kalinin to return to Petrograd, though he would have made a valuable hostage. Further, no attempt was made to take the offensive... Significant too, is the large number of Communists who took part in the movement.(...)
    The Sailors needed no outside encouragement to raise the banner of insurrection... Kronstadt was clearly ripe for a rebellion. What set it off was not the machination of emigre conspirators and foreign intelligence agents but the wave of peasant risings throughout the country and the labour disturbances in neighboring Petrograd. And as the revolt unfolded, it followed the pattern of earlier outbursts against the central government from 1905 through the Civil War."

    "Significant too, is the large number of Communists who took part in the movement".
    Hundreds of whom tore up their Party cards according to Orlando Figes
    And none of this contradicts the points I made about Kronstadt. Like always - you are taking a quote and reading what you want to into it. In fact - rather than writing it anew - I will simply repost what I said on this forum 3 years ago when you and others were making similar arguments.

    1. The Kronstadt revolt occurred at the tail-end the Russian Civil War when the Russian working class were combating the White counter-revolution and the intervention armies of Western Imperialism
    2. There is ample evidence from the Russian archives (much of it emerged since the fall of Stalinism) that demonstrates that the Kronstadt revolt was initiated, orchestrated and manipulated by the White counter-revolutionaries and their agents.
    3. Trotsky did not issue any orders in relation to the suppression of the Kronstadt revolt other than recognising that the revolt was acting in consort with the White counter-revolution and had to be defeated. Trotsky was in the Urals when the rebellion started and was in Moscow when it was suppressed. He took no part, direct or indirect, in the military operations.
    4. The bolsheviks engaged in negotiations with the rebels in an effort to address the issues they raised. During the negotiations the rebels seized the Kronstadt naval base and posed a direct threat to the bolsheviks. It is accepted that Kalinin, who was responsible for the negotiations on behalf of the bolsheviks, did not handle the negotiations in an appropriate manner. The attack on Kronstadt was ordered only after the rebels rejected an ultimatum to surrender.
    5. The French planned to use the Kronstadt revolt as a pretext to occupy Kronstadt with the French navy and use it as a base by the British and the French to launch attacks on the Red Army (the French armed the Kronstadt rebels).
    6. The occupants of Kronstadt were not unified in their support for the revolt - indeed a significant section opposed the rebellion and were viciously suppressed by the rebels.
    7. The rebel commanders shot large number of troops who refused to open fire on the advancing Red Army because they supported the bolsheviks
    8. During the Red Army attack on Kronstadt, the workers in the town moved against the rebels and actually retook the city before the Red Army arrived in Kronstadt.
    9. The orders and methods used for the suppression of the Kronstadt revolt (specifically the executions afterwards) came from the local Red Army (more specifically the Cheka) commanders - not from Trotsky.
    10. As the commander of the Red Army Trotsky accepted political responsibility for the actions of the Red Army at Kronstadt despite the fact that he had no responsibility for issuing any direct orders in relation to the assault. Trotsky stated 'I was a member of the government, I considered the quelling of the rebellion necessary and therefore bear responsibility for the suppression.'

    Avrich demonstrates from the archival evidence that the revolt was organised by a small 'closely knit group of energetic organisers' - that 'it is desirable that shortly after the uprising some French vessels...even more desirable would be the arrival of some units of the Russian (White) Army" - specifically the pro-white rebel leaders in Kronstadt wanted General Wrangel's forces to support the revolt and 'overthrow Soviet authority in Russia'. These plans were laid before the defeat of Wrangel's forces in the Crimea and the later intention was to use elements of Wrangel's forces who had escaped the defeat.

    There are now more than 1,000 archival documents available relating to the Kronstadt revolt. These come from a variety of sources including 1. rebels arrested and interrogated by the Cheka 2. reports from Red Army commanders 3. interviews with many of the 8,000 rebels who escaped to Finland or were allowed to leave Kronstadt in the aftermath of the revolt 4. personal recollections by those who organised or were involved in the revolt 5. visiting White Guard emissaries 6. White Army reports etc. The most noticeable thing about this archival material is that these is a consistent thread running through all the material that demonstrates that the Kronstadt revolt was a revolt inspired and organised by White agents who conscious attempted to use the dire circumstances faced by the population of Kronstadt to provoke a revolt that they hoped would spread to the rest of the country and undermine the position of the Bolshevik government and lead to a renewed impetuous for the White counter-revolution.

    One last point - in the context of the Russian civil war Kronstadt was far from a major event - it was one of a series of anti-Soviet uprisings - and not the biggest. It wasn't until 1938 when some anarchist writers began raising Kronstadt that it entered public discourse. Trotsky answered the issues in response:

    https://www.marxists.org/archive/tro.../kronstadt.htm

    Quote Originally Posted by IvoShandor View Post
    Oh? And I thought you were so well-informed you were bound to know who he was.
    I know exact who Myasnikov is - but you just tossed out a name without context -

    I could have said in reply - Like, Ronald McDonald for a start.
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  6. #166
    IvoShandor IvoShandor is online now
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    Quote Originally Posted by making waves View Post
    But this again is a side issue to the general point that the repression implement by the Soviet government was in direct response to the brutality of the Whites and the Imperialist armies. Stalin believed in terror for the sake of it - that terror was progressive - but his was largely alone in this view, the Bolshevik leadership imposed repression out of necessity, unlike the Whites and the Imperialists who engaged in repression for the sake of it.
    I gave my response to that before in posts#112,149 and 157. I'm not repeating myself

    Quote Originally Posted by making waves View Post
    Trotsky wrote extensively about the Mensheviks - their role in helping the Stalinists into power, their role in attacking the Left Opposition when it was confronting the early stages of the Stalinist counter-revolution, the use by Stalin of their support base among the peasantry, the warning that the Stalinists would turn on them when they became a threat.
    A poor evasion. We're well past the point where we regard Trotsky as a disinterested party. And my point stands. What did Trotsky has to say about those trials?
    As for Kulaks (yet again)..George Orwell said it well when he said " “Political writing in our time consists almost entirely of prefabricated phrases bolted together like the pieces of a child's Meccano set". And never was it better said than about Trotskyist (or Marxist-Leninist in general) nonsense.

    Nowhere else did repressions, purges, supressions, and all other kinds of bureaucratic hooliganism in general acquire such horrifying scope as in Ukraine, in the struggle against powerful forces concealed in the Ukrainian masses that desired more freedom and independence.

    Look who's talking. We might have more sympathy for Trotsky if he hasn't been such an advocate of shooting people down without mercy. He was no novice at the "repressions" himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by making waves View Post
    The Black Hundreds were a fascist party and were organised (emerging from previously existing fascist groups) in 1906 in response to the 1905 Revolution.

    As for providing evidence - clearly you didn't look hard enough - start with:

    Stanley Payne, A History of Fascism, (London, 1995)
    Well, You've certainly exposed yourself as a waffler. Either that or you don't even bother to read the works you cite.
    There is nothing in Payne's book that conforms your daft assertion that the Black Hundreds were a fascist party. I'm looking forward with glee to see you quote chapter-and-verse from Payne's book. In fact here is the most pertinent quotation:
    "Russia before 1914 was too underdeveloped to harbor all the stimuli and forces which would soon bring fascism to life in central Europe. (quoting from, Laqeuer 'Black Hundred') "Though it was moving in the direction of Fascism , the URP was as yet very far from reaching this indistinct goal".
    If this is the level of accuracy of your citations, I think we can all save time and ignore the lot of them.
    Last edited by IvoShandor; Yesterday at 05:30 PM.
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  7. #167
    Jezza15 Jezza15 is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by making waves View Post
    The Kronstadt Rebellion 1921 was a rebellion orchestrated by the Whites and financed by the French government.
    Lenin's counter-revolutionary coup in November 1917 was funded by the German imperialists.

    Capitalists imperialists have no problem dealing with Marxists. Marxists always deliver on a deal because they have no scruples and they know how to control people.
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