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  1. #741
    Strawberry Strawberry is offline
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    "At a time when people are battling over whether to take down Confederate War statues and memorials, a pair of state lawmakers in South Carolina want to put one up.

    And it wouldn't be just another Civil War monument. It would be a monument to honor the sacrifices of black Confederate troops from South Carolina."

    One small problem....

    "But Walter Edgar, considered to be the premier historian on all things South Carolina, said there's no evidence there were ever any black soldiers that fought under the Confederate banner.
    "In all my years of research, I can say I have seen no documentation of black South Carolina soldiers fighting for the Confederacy," Edgar told The State newspaper in Columbia, South Carolina.

    Republicans in South Carolina want to honor black Confederate soldiers. There's just one problem... - CNN
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  2. #742
    owedtojoy owedtojoy is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
    "At a time when people are battling over whether to take down Confederate War statues and memorials, a pair of state lawmakers in South Carolina want to put one up.

    And it wouldn't be just another Civil War monument. It would be a monument to honor the sacrifices of black Confederate troops from South Carolina."

    One small problem....

    "But Walter Edgar, considered to be the premier historian on all things South Carolina, said there's no evidence there were ever any black soldiers that fought under the Confederate banner.
    "In all my years of research, I can say I have seen no documentation of black South Carolina soldiers fighting for the Confederacy," Edgar told The State newspaper in Columbia, South Carolina.

    Republicans in South Carolina want to honor black Confederate soldiers. There's just one problem... - CNN
    The "black Confederates" is a piece of hokum that was invented in the last few years to try to deflect from the white supremacist character of the Confederacy. I have read assertions of whole divisions of blacks serving in the Confederate forces, as they indeed did in the Union forces. No evidence exists for any organised black forces in the CSA.

    Blacks did assist the CSA, but mostly involuntarily - in unpaid labour for military works and industries mostly. Of course, many slave owners did take black servants to war with them, and in many cases these may have been more loyal to the master than to the overall cause of black freedom. But there was no effort to enlist blacks, until very late in the war, and even then it was begrudging and too late.

    It is an interesting counter-factual to wonder what would have happened if the Confederacy had ended slavery and enlisted blacks before the North did. But it would have been impossible because Confederacy was for slavery and very little else.

    When the Irish Confederate General Patrick Cleburne proposed enlisting blacks in 1863, his proposal was suppressed by the President himself.
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  3. #743
    Strawberry Strawberry is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by owedtojoy View Post
    The "black Confederates" is a piece of hokum that was invented in the last few years to try to deflect from the white supremacist character of the Confederacy. I have read assertions of whole divisions of blacks serving in the Confederate forces, as they indeed did in the Union forces. No evidence exists for any organised black forces in the CSA.

    Blacks did assist the CSA, but mostly involuntarily - in unpaid labour for military works and industries mostly. Of course, many slave owners did take black servants to war with them, and in many cases these may have been more loyal to the master than to the overall cause of black freedom. But there was no effort to enlist blacks, until very late in the war, and even then it was begrudging and too late.

    It is an interesting counter-factual to wonder what would have happened if the Confederacy had ended slavery and enlisted blacks before the North did. But it would have been impossible because Confederacy was for slavery and very little else.

    When the Irish Confederate General Patrick Cleburne proposed enlisting blacks in 1863, his proposal was suppressed by the President himself.
    Hmmm...now I wonder why the Confederates were so reluctant to give guns and military training to black people. They must have figured those blacks had something against...erm....'states' rights'. Why that should be will probably forever remain one of the great unanswered questions of history.
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  4. #744
    Catalpast Catalpast is online now
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    The United States Government could have possibly avoided Civil War if they had offered Compensation to the Southern States in exchange for the Abolition of Slavery

    It certainly would have been IMO a less expensive and costly road to follow than invading the South and four long years of War....
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  5. #745
    owedtojoy owedtojoy is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catalpast View Post
    The United States Government could have possibly avoided Civil War if they had offered Compensation to the Southern States in exchange for the Abolition of Slavery

    It certainly would have been IMO a less expensive and costly road to follow than invading the South and four long years of War....
    Not a hope in Hell.

    Even if someone had the authority to make such an offer, it would have to pass both Houses of Congress, and Southern representatives would have defeated it.

    Lincoln offered Emancipation with Compensation to the slave owners of Delaware (a Union state) during the war, and before the Emancipation Proclamation (which exempted slave owners within Union lines). It was refused. If slave owners loyal to the Union would not accept Compensation, I doubt if Southern ones would.

    It would certainly have saved a lot of lives, but would have been impossible to push through in a time of peace.
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  6. #746
    owedtojoy owedtojoy is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
    Hmmm...now I wonder why the Confederates were so reluctant to give guns and military training to black people. They must have figured those blacks had something against...erm....'states' rights'. Why that should be will probably forever remain one of the great unanswered questions of history.
    Cleburne offered freedom and civil rights to blacks in return for military service. It was that Southerners found unpalatable.
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  7. #747
    Strawberry Strawberry is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by owedtojoy View Post
    Cleburne offered freedom and civil rights to blacks in return for military service. It was that Southerners found unpalatable.
    No doubt. Even without that I venture a guess that no Confederate government was going to allow guns to be placed in the hands of the black population. Cleburne doesn't seem to have understood the entity that he was fighting for.
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  8. #748
    owedtojoy owedtojoy is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
    No doubt. Even without that I venture a guess that no Confederate government was going to allow guns to be placed in the hands of the black population. Cleburne doesn't seem to have understood the entity that he was fighting for.
    Yes, and Cleburne is an interesting man.

    He was from Ovens in Co Cork, a Protestant, who was a British Army corporal. He was well educated, and after he emigrated when he was 23 or so, became a lawyer in Arkansas.

    As Cleburne himself said, he never owned slaves, had no interest in them, and went to war as a "Southern nationalist". He had no loyalty to the institution of slavery, but many of his comrades did. When slavery began to collapse, most Confederates did not see the point any more. With slavery gone, they might as well be back in the Union on the best terms they could get. Hence, the Emancipation Proclamation was deadly to the Confederacy and its morale.

    The Confederacy was a failed state, and after it was gone, no one ever tried to revive it.

    It did not do much good for poor Cleburne, though, he was killed at the Battle of Franklin in 1864.
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  9. #749
    owedtojoy owedtojoy is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barney Bunion View Post
    Just out of curiosity, if someone wants to serve his master who are you to stop them?
    If they wanted to serve their master's as free men, then I have no problem with that.

    The problem comes when they want to withdraw their service - a free man can withdraw his service anytime. A slave has no right to do so, and the master has the right to coerce obedience.

    I have a problem with one man claiming the right to whip and beat another for not serving him. Do you not have a problem with that?

    In the American south, a master has other rights - he could sell his slaves' wives, husbands or children for his own profit, or send them to work elsewhere, destroying their family. The slave has no right to an education, or to own property, and barely to exercise any religion.
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  10. #750
    Catalpast Catalpast is online now
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    Quote Originally Posted by owedtojoy View Post
    Yes, and Cleburne is an interesting man.

    He was from Ovens in Co Cork, a Protestant, who was a British Army corporal. He was well educated, and after he emigrated when he was 23 or so, became a lawyer in Arkansas.

    As Cleburne himself said, he never owned slaves, had no interest in them, and went to war as a "Southern nationalist". He had no loyalty to the institution of slavery, but many of his comrades did. When slavery began to collapse, most Confederates did not see the point any more. With slavery gone, they might as well be back in the Union on the best terms they could get. Hence, the Emancipation Proclamation was deadly to the Confederacy and its morale.

    The Confederacy was a failed state, and after it was gone, no one ever tried to revive it.

    It did not do much good for poor Cleburne, though, he was killed at the Battle of Franklin in 1864.
    Famously when told to charge the Union lines he turned to his Officers and said:

    Gentlemen if we must die - then let us die like Men....

    Cool or what?
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