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  1. #11
    owedtojoy owedtojoy is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drogheda445 View Post
    It's possible that the destruction or capture of the army at Dunkirk might have prompted Churchill to resign, and a more pliable British PM might have caved in and chosen to negotiate terms with the Nazis, although it's purely speculative. The Nazis couldn't have invaded Britain, that much has been proven (they were planning to use canal barges to ferry troops and panzers across the Channel in Autumn!), and they probably weren't particularly bothered invading Britain anyway (Hitler certainly wasn't enthusiastic). The most the Nazis could probably have done in the end was to starve Britain through u-boat campaigns, although with the RN intact that's easier said than done.

    Regardless of what happened to Britain, although Russians were very unprepared, at the same time they would have been very hard to defeat based on geography alone. WW2 might have went on for far longer but with covert American assistance they would probably have been able to push the Nazis back due to sheer manpower. The consequence of course would mean that unless the Americans intervened all of Mainland Europe would have gone communist.

    Great film btw!
    Churchill only took power on the day of the German breakthrough in the Ardennes, so the debacle was not down to him.

    Norway was largely down to him, but Chamberlain took the blame for Dunkirk, and probably rightly so.

    A much better counter-factual is this one from Max Hastings.

    Hitler screwed up by attacking the UK at all, though Goering assured him the Luftwaffe could bring it to its knees. In fact, the Nazis did exactly what Churchill wanted - attack Britain head-on in the only area where there are was parity, and in fact a British advantage, the air. An invasion by sea and land was out of the question. But Britain was vulnerable on land in other areas.

    Suppose Hitler had shrewdly let Churchill "wither on the vine" in his UK fortress, and attacked in the Mediterranean instead - on Gibraltar, Malta and Egypt. Spain and Italy were only too willing to offer bases, and if the Germans had taken Gibraltar, Malta and the Suez Canal in 1940 or 1941, British morale would have probably collapsed. Churchill's Government would have been seen as a flop, and its successors forced into a negotiated peace.

    Surviving Dunkirk and winning he Battle of Britain gave the UK an enormous morale boost, and kept it in the war until the US joined in. But survival alone would not have been enough.

    This means that Hitler's showdown with Stalin would have been delayed until 1942 at least, but under better circumstances. The UK out of the fight, and possibly another invasion route to Russia directly through the Black Sea or Iran.

    It is interesting to consider the ramifications for the United States in that scenario - still isolationist, but willing to be "Britain's arsenal". If the Germans looked like taking the Suez Canal, would the US have intervened?

    Thank God, we will never know.
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  2. #12
    owedtojoy owedtojoy is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cellachán Chaisil View Post
    Imagine Hitler was able to hold those 400,000 soldiers hostage, what concessions could he have exacted?

    Saw the movie and as an "anti-war" leftist feminist I enjoyed it. I was worried it would be full of flagwaving and stirring patriotism, but it was really artfully done.

    I do believe the French were slightly hard done by. It is acknowledged that they were holding off the Nazis (who aren't seen until the last moment of the film) but their sacrifice is glossed over.
    Have not seen the film yet, but there is an abiding feeling in the French that the British did a scuttle and left them behind. Actually, that it nor true.

    And historians have shown that Churchill was still sending troops to France, to Brittany and Normandy, expecting there to be a stirring defence on the Somme, Seine, Loire, or even from Algeria. This troops were later extracted only with some difficulty, and some never made it home.

    I am glad to see also that much of the film is dedicated to the vital air war. "Stuffy" Dowding, the head of Fighter Command, later said that Dunkirk was far more difficult than the Battle of Britain as the RAF had to fly farther and therefore had less fuel over the battle area. That advantage was reversed in the Battle of Britain.

    Looking forward to watching it.

    Edit: I was reminded that at Dunkirk, Churchill ordered Dowding to limit RAF support, saying the squadrons were going to be needed later. He was right, but it was a terrible risk. As it was, the RAF were just about able to do enough.
    Last edited by owedtojoy; 30th July 2017 at 04:51 PM.
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  3. #13
    owedtojoy owedtojoy is offline
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    Incidentally, while Dunkirk was going on, in London the UK suffered the biggest political crisis in its history as Churchill struggled against powerful foes to keep Britain in the war. I blogged about them here.

    This is only peripheral in the film, but was in many ways as great a drama.

    When Churchill and Britain tottered: May 26th-28th, 1940

    What Churchill was confronting make Theresa May's problems look like a stroll in the park.
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  4. #14
    amsterdemmetje amsterdemmetje is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by owedtojoy View Post
    Have not seen the film yet, but there is an abiding feeling in the French that the British did a scuttle and left them behind. Actually, that it nor true.

    And historians have shown that Churchill was still sending troops to France, to Brittany and Normandy, expecting there to be a stirring defence on the Somme, Seine, Loire, or even from Algeria. This troops were later extracted only with some difficulty, and some never made it home.

    I am glad to see also that much of the film is dedicated to the vital air war. "Stuffy" Dowding, the head of Fighter Command, later said that Dunkirk was far more difficult than the Battle of Britain as the RAF had to fly farther and therefore had less fuel over the battle area. That advantage was reversed in the Battle of Britain.

    Looking forward to watching it.

    Edit: I was reminded that at Dunkirk, Churchill ordered Dowding to limit RAF support, saying the squadrons were going to be needed later. He was right, but it was a terrible risk. As it was, the RAF were just about able to do enough.
    I watched it last Sunday and enjoyed it immensely ,there were some you college students in front of me who were perplexed about why it was darker around the men struggling in the water at one stage when a Destroyer had been sunk by a torpedo ..It didn't dawn on to them that the black smoke from its oil burning on the water and on the ship was having this affect.
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  5. #15
    Roman Emperor Roman Emperor is online now
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    Quote Originally Posted by amsterdemmetje View Post
    I watched it last Sunday and enjoyed it immensely ,there were some you college students in front of me who were perplexed about why it was darker around the men struggling in the water at one stage when a Destroyer had been sunk by a torpedo ..It didn't dawn on to them that the black smoke from its oil burning on the water and on the ship was having this affect.
    Went to see it last night....brilliant.

    Do you have any idea where it was filmed ?
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  6. #16
    Roberto Jordan Roberto Jordan is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by owedtojoy View Post
    Have not seen the film yet, but there is an abiding feeling in the French that the British did a scuttle and left them behind. Actually, that it nor true.

    And historians have shown that Churchill was still sending troops to France, to Brittany and Normandy, expecting there to be a stirring defence on the Somme, Seine, Loire, or even from Algeria. This troops were later extracted only with some difficulty, and some never made it home.

    I am glad to see also that much of the film is dedicated to the vital air war. "Stuffy" Dowding, the head of Fighter Command, later said that Dunkirk was far more difficult than the Battle of Britain as the RAF had to fly farther and therefore had less fuel over the battle area. That advantage was reversed in the Battle of Britain.

    Looking forward to watching it.

    Edit: I was reminded that at Dunkirk, Churchill ordered Dowding to limit RAF support, saying the squadrons were going to be needed later. He was right, but it was a terrible risk. As it was, the RAF were just about able to do enough.
    No churchillian fan here but the one thing he and his government most certainly did not do is abandon the French.....they even offered a formal union of the two nations with joint sovereignty in an attempt to bolster French resolve and head off a formal surrender by the republic....
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  7. #17
    amsterdemmetje amsterdemmetje is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roman Emperor View Post
    Went to see it last night....brilliant.

    Do you have any idea where it was filmed ?
    The wife tells me URK in the North West coast of Holland.
    Last edited by amsterdemmetje; 30th July 2017 at 05:35 PM.
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  8. #18
    raetsel raetsel is online now

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    Quote Originally Posted by Telstar 62 View Post
    The 'anti war' Left and Feminists are deeply resentful of this film.


    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...istopher-nolan
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  9. #19
    silverharp silverharp is online now
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    Quote Originally Posted by Telstar 62 View Post
    The 'anti war' Left and Feminists are deeply resentful of this film.
    it was nice having a movie that the progressives coulndnt fck with


    Marie Claire‏Verified account @marieclaire Jul 28
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    .@dunkirkmovie feels like an excuse for men to celebrate maleness—and don't they get to do that enough already?
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  10. #20
    PO'Neill PO'Neill is offline
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    One of the greatest ar$e kickings of all time But the Brits are now trying to turn it into the 'glorious failure' like Singapore, Norway, Gallipoli, Battle of Balaclava No one deserved it better.
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