Pius IX supported American confederacy, documents show

[Tribunaljunkie]

With regard to Germany and Austria, His Holiness seemed to fear a general revolution as a natural consequence of the constitutional liberties conceded to the people by timid and imprudent sovereigns, and he deplored and condemned the philosophic tendencies of the Roman Catholic clergy in Germany..

. . .

Turning to America the Pope expressed his deep regret that he could do nothing towards the re-establishment of peace between the Federals and the Confederates. He had written to both Presidents Lincoln and Davis, but without success. At the same time he would not conceal from me that all his sympathies were with the Southern Confederacy and he wished them all success. There were, His Holiness added, far more conversions to Catholicism in the South than in the North.

298 [Foreign 0fice - 43/9IB] L 'Ariccia near Rome, 30 July 1864

No. 59. Confidential

[British Minister to the Holy See] Odo Russell to Earl Russell

The document above shows the thinking of one of the most famous (or indeed infamous) popes in history, Pope Pius IX (1846-1878). In the diplomatic report back of a conversation, th British minister to Rome recorded both Pius's opposition to the granting of 'constitutional liberties' to ordinary people, and, interestingly his support for the Confederate States of America, the breakaway American federal state created to defend the continuance of slavery in the Southern United States.

A couple of questions come to mind:

1. How did Irish political leaders and the public of the era feel about the Confederacy?

2. Whether Pius's support for the UDI confederacy serves as a reminder of how often the Catholic Church has been proven wrong by history?

3. How aware are Irish people of the number of times Catholicism proved to be totally wrong in its contemporary judgments, or do they generally believe the Church for the most part to be right throughout its history?

4. How does that awareness impact on the power of Catholicism in 21st century Ireland and its society?

[Starkadder]

1. How did Irish political leaders and the public of the era feel about the Confederacy?

Remember that the Young Irelander & proto-fascist nutcase John Mitchel supposed slavery and anti-semitism
in the US (See History Ireland, May 2007). He was Ireland's answer to Arthur de Gobineau
and Thomas Carlyle.

[joel]

With regard to Germany and Austria, His Holiness seemed to fear a general revolution as a natural consequence of the constitutional liberties conceded to the people by timid and imprudent sovereigns, and he deplored and condemned the philosophic tendencies of the Roman Catholic clergy in Germany..

. . .

Turning to America the Pope expressed his deep regret that he could do nothing towards the re-establishment of peace between the Federals and the Confederates. He had written to both Presidents Lincoln and Davis, but without success. At the same time he would not conceal from me that all his sympathies were with the Southern Confederacy and he wished them all success. There were, His Holiness added, far more conversions to Catholicism in the South than in the North.

298 [Foreign 0fice - 43/9IB] L 'Ariccia near Rome, 30 July 1864

No. 59. Confidential

[British Minister to the Holy See] Odo Russell to Earl Russell

The document above shows the thinking of one of the most famous (or indeed infamous) popes in history, Pope Pius IX (1846-1878). In the diplomatic report back of a conversation, th British minister to Rome recorded both Pius's opposition to the granting of 'constitutional liberties' to ordinary people, and, interestingly his support for the Confederate States of America, the breakaway American federal state created to defend the continuance of slavery in the Southern United States.

A couple of questions come to mind:

1. How did Irish political leaders and the public of the era feel about the Confederacy?

2. Whether Pius's support for the UDI confederacy serves as a reminder of how often the Catholic Church has been proven wrong by history?

3. How aware are Irish people of the number of times Catholicism proved to be totally wrong in its contemporary judgments, or do they generally believe the Church for the most part to be right throughout its history?

4. How does that awareness impact on the power of Catholicism in 21st century Ireland and its society?

What is your church?

[Tribunaljunkie]

1. How did Irish political leaders and the public of the era feel about the Confederacy?

Remember that the Young Irelander & proto-fascist nutcase John Mitchel supposed slavery and anti-semitism
in the US (See History Ireland, May 2007). He was Ireland's answer to Arthur de Gobineau
and Thomas Carlyle.

Mitchel's viewpoints and support for slavery were certainly not quite as innocent and appealing as some made them out to be. Arthur Griffith was also viciously anti-semetic, as were a number of the founding fathers of Sinn Fein. The anti-semitism within Roman Catholicism was often matched by the anti-semitism within the Irish independence movement. Some early 20th century Republican pamphleteers wrote stomach-churning racist stuff.

[Starkadder]

With regard to slavery, Daniel O'Connell was an abolitionist and R.R. Madden, an Irish-American historian of the United Irishmen, was a committed abolitionist who gave crucial evidence during the Amistad trial.

http://www.irlandeses.org/0711burton3.htm


So Mitchel was in a minority among Irish Nationalists.

[corelli]

Given the historical context is it hardly suprising that Pius was not overly enthralled with the remaining german princlings and the prussians/austrians granting what to him must have been enormous autonomies to their subjects. Dont forget this was an autocratic absolute ruler who in 1870 lost what very little remained of the papal states. His previous subjects were none too sad to see papal rule come to an end!!

It was left to his sucessor Pope Leo to accept DEMOCRACY (the later popes credit him as the creator of christian democracy) as an acceptable form of Government, in his famous encyclical Rerum Novarum.

[Catalpa]

Alas the Holy Father was a man of great personal warmth and charm who started out as a Liberal but the violent antics of some of the revolutionists turned him into a political reactionary.

Italy was going huge political and social change during his Pontificate and Pius was unable to adapt to all of this so instead he tried to stop rtaher than influence change - his political rigidity cost him dear.

http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=9408

Note that the Irish rallied to the Pope's cause in 1860 and the Irish Battalion of St. Patrick saw action at Spoleto, Perugia, Castelfildardo and Ancona in the Papal cause.

Bravo!

[Tribunaljunkie]

With regard to slavery, Daniel O'Connell was an abolitionist and R.R. Madden, an Irish-American historian of the United Irishmen, was a committed abolitionist who gave crucial evidence during the Amistad trial.

http://www.irlandeses.org/0711burton3.htm


So Mitchel was in a minority among Irish Nationalists.

Yes he was. So were more Nationalists of Parliamentary Party variety. However the Republicans who replaced the Nationalists in the second decade of the 20th century held a range of views, with some (Fr Flanagan, for example) extremely anti-semitic and quite a few racist. De Valera's rumoured Jewish origins, and his Spanish origins, were constantly used against him within Sinn Fein and in later parties. Protestantism was also an 'issue' for many.

O'Connell's stand against slavery is one of the many facts forgotten about him. He was for his day quite a radical.

[Catalpa]

With regard to slavery, Daniel O'Connell was an abolitionist and R.R. Madden, an Irish-American historian of the United Irishmen, was a committed abolitionist who gave crucial evidence during the Amistad trial.

http://www.irlandeses.org/0711burton3.htm


So Mitchel was in a minority among Irish Nationalists.

Yes he was. So were more Nationalists of Parliamentary Party variety. However the Republicans who replaced the Nationalists in the second decade of the 20th century held a range of views, with some (Fr Flanagan, for example) extremely anti-semitic and quite a few racist. De Valera's rumoured Jewish origins, and his Spanish origins, were constantly used against him within Sinn Fein and in later parties. Protestantism was also an 'issue' for many.

O'Connell's stand against slavery is one of the many facts forgotten about him. He was for his day quite a radical.

My first object is to get Ireland for the Irish.
Daniel O'Connell
Mullingar, 14 May 1843

[green]

No Pope is the be-all and end-all of Catholicism. Unfortunately, those who hold right to far-right sympathies often rise highest in the Church, as evidenced by friends of Pinochet and Franco in the Curia, and the Spansh bishops' recent call for a vote for the PP in the upcoming general election. This does not mean that they speak for the Catholic Church, or for Catholics individually, but they are entitled to their personal political views, as was Pius IX.

As a contrast, look at the number of Catholic priests who have been far-left parliamentarians in the USA (Brannigan), Nicaragua and other Central and South American countries, or those who gave material support and assistance to SF and the IRA during the Troubles (McManus, Ryan etc.). None of them were representative of the Chrch either, yet tend to be overlooked in threads like these.