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  1. #21
    Hogsback Hogsback is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by General Urko View Post
    Collins may have been killed any way, indeed had he survived, I think he would not by choice have served term after term!
    Hence President Collins by 1939 (not Taoiseach Collins).

    But hey - I thought we were speculating here anyway....
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  2. #22
    The Eagle of the Ninth The Eagle of the Ninth is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by President Bartlet View Post
    If Maxwell had of executed Dev there would have been no Fianna Fail or Fianna Gael - it would have been Sinn Fein - both parties were born out of the split of the Civil War which might not have happened. It could well have been Sinn Fein v the Labour Party
    You're leaving out the fact that it wasn't Dev who was solely responsible for or even the prime mover in the split. There were many others eg Cahal Brugha, who were probably much more hard line.

    Dev was a survivor. If you take a more detached view of what happened, you can see he was fence sitting most of the time during the Treaty negotiations.
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  3. #23
    NMunsterman NMunsterman is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by General Urko View Post
    Collins may have been killed any way, indeed had he survived, I think he would not by choice have served term after term!
    Whatever the Brits offered in exchange for WW2 support, they would either have reneged on it or The Nazis would have destroyed us!
    No 1937 constitution though!
    Spot on - and Dev certainly knew that too.
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  4. #24
    President Bartlet President Bartlet is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Eagle of the Ninth View Post
    You're leaving out the fact that it wasn't Dev who was solely responsible for or even the prime mover in the split. There were many others eg Cahal Brugha, who were probably much more hard line.

    Dev was a survivor. If you take a more detached view of what happened, you can see he was fence sitting most of the time during the Treaty negotiations.
    Oh totally agree there is no doubt that he sat on the fence knowing full well they wouldn't get a Republic and didn't want his fingerprints over a document that didn't and then played the disgusted leader and it was negotiated because it didn't give the Republic and threw a strop because it External Association/Document No2 were ignored by the delegation and the British. Question is would Brugha walked away and become leader of the Anti-Treaty forces?
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  5. #25
    ireallyshouldknowbetter ireallyshouldknowbetter is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hogsback View Post
    - No civil war
    - Collins survives
    - Under Taoiseach Collins FG establishes itself as the main party of the state, and it takes a genuinely Republican position
    - Collins covertly supports the Nationalists in the North
    - During WWII President Collins negotiates militarily meaningless but highly symbolic support for Britain with Churchill in exchange for a united Ireland after the war
    - 32 County Republic established 1946
    - Strong trade ties with UK and a constitution limiting the executive powers of the RCC lead to a thriving and forward looking nation by the late fifties, early sixties
    - Minimal emigration and a strong education system drive year over year economic and industrial growth the envy of most European countries through the 70s and 80s
    - Tech boom at the turn of the century brings a new boost to the country. Thankfully close regulation of the banking sector and a highly competent government sees the country through a global crisis or two, seeing the country emerge into a model for world management
    - Annual budget surpluses and zero national debt see the country decide to bid farewell to the Euro and return to the Punt 2010 to insulate the country from global uncertainty
    - Ireland, most advanced scientific country in the world, sets up the Michael Collins Institute for Longevity in honour of Ireland's Eternal President, who died of old age in his sleep at the age of 102.
    - Michael Collins Institute of Longevity cures cancer in 2020
    - Discovers secret of eternal life in 2021
    - December 2022, FG hosts a world conference to resolve all outstanding conflicts
    - World peace breaks out

    MAXWELL!!! *shakes fist*
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  6. #26
    The Eagle of the Ninth The Eagle of the Ninth is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by President Bartlet View Post
    Oh totally agree there is no doubt that he sat on the fence knowing full well they wouldn't get a Republic and didn't want his fingerprints over a document that didn't and then played the disgusted leader and it was negotiated because it didn't give the Republic and threw a strop because it External Association/Document No2 were ignored by the delegation and the British. Question is would Brugha walked away and become leader of the Anti-Treaty forces?
    He walked out into the Four Courts, we know what he did. Given his track record, I don't imagine he would have acted any differently whether Dev existed or not.

    My reading is that Dev did not know what happen one way or the other. He may have privately suspected that no 32 county Republic was on the table. Stormont was already up and running under the Government of Ireland Act 1920.

    But he was as much a prisoner of everyone else as he was ever in a position to control them or to influence the outcome. That is why I call him a great survivor.
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  7. #27
    President Bartlet President Bartlet is offline
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    Could we have had a proper left right political divide with a proper centre left party that could have challenged the right?
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  8. #28
    President Bartlet President Bartlet is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Eagle of the Ninth View Post
    He walked out into the Four Courts, we know what he did. Given his track record, I don't imagine he would have acted any differently whether Dev existed or not.

    My reading is that Dev did not know what happen one way or the other. He may have privately suspected that no 32 county Republic was on the table. Stormont was already up and running under the Government of Ireland Act 1920.

    But he was as much a prisoner of everyone else as he was ever in a position to control them or to influence the outcome. That is why I call him a great survivor.
    I don't disagree with you that he was a great survivor - indeed he was a master politician. Having gone to London and met Lloyd George in July 1922 just after the truce - he came home from that meeting knowing full well a republic was not going to happen and was a cute hoor by staying at home sitting on the fence during the negotiations and sending Collins instead.
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  9. #29
    The Eagle of the Ninth The Eagle of the Ninth is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by President Bartlet View Post
    Could we have had a proper left right political divide with a proper centre left party that could have challenged the right?
    You would have to ask yourself where this Left was going to come from? Other than Northern Ireland which was at the time the most industrialised and proletarianised part of Ireland. Sectarianism trumped class solidarity. They even had Catholic and Protestant TUs.

    The rest of Ireland, outside Dublin and a few pockets elsewhere, was rural agrarian and petty bourgeois shop-owing class. Ireland could not even muster a decent Liberal party.
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  10. #30
    President Bartlet President Bartlet is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Eagle of the Ninth View Post
    You would have to ask yourself where this Left was going to come from? Other than Northern Ireland which was at the time the most industrialised and proletarianised part of Ireland. Sectarianism trumped class solidarity. They even had Catholic and Protestant TUs.

    The rest of Ireland, outside Dublin and a few pockets elsewhere, was rural agrarian and petty bourgeois shop-owing class. Ireland could not even muster a decent Liberal party.
    What about Labour - had they not been formed in 1913?
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