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  1. #21
    Seanie Lemass Seanie Lemass is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimples 77 View Post
    But wouldn't the local rulers have been ruling even if they weren't backed by the Soviets?

    It isn't as if they ruled only due to Soviet backing.


    They wouldn't have survived in most cases. Indeed the Syrians are still to a large extent dependent on the Russians.
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  2. #22
    Dimples 77 Dimples 77 is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by General Urko View Post
    Hello Syria today and Egypt under Nassar and to an extent under Sadat!
    Are you really saying that Nassar and Sadat wouldn't have been able to rule without Soviet backing?

    BTW
    There are no Soviets today.
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  3. #23
    Dimples 77 Dimples 77 is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seanie Lemass View Post
    They wouldn't have survived in most cases.
    How do you know that?
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  4. #24
    General Urko General Urko is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimples 77 View Post
    Nonsense.

    The vested interests would ensure that the people wouldn't get to decide anything even if those vested interests didn't have western/Soviet backers.
    I have mentioned those vested interests other than Western/Soviet(Russian) flip sides of the same coin!
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  5. #25
    Dimples 77 Dimples 77 is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by ruserious View Post
    Jordan is a fairly stable pseudo democracy.
    Pseudo democracy?

    Is that a recognition that the government and the senate are appointed by the king?

    How is that 'the people ruling themselves'?
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  6. #26
    Seanie Lemass Seanie Lemass is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimples 77 View Post
    How do you know that?

    Soviets and their allies helped them to see off coups and even armed them to fight wars. Nasser is classic example. There is not a chance he'd have survived without the Soviets. Moscow was so happy to have him as ally that they allowed him to slaughter the CPE. Indeed Egyptian Communists were torutred by people trained by the Stasi!
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  7. #27
    Dimples 77 Dimples 77 is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by General Urko View Post
    I have mentioned those vested interests other than Western/Soviet(Russian) flip sides of the same coin!
    I'm not getting your point.

    There are vested interests in these countries that would end up ruling anyway on a non-democratic basis. Those vested interests aren't interested in 'the people ruling themselves'. They are only interested in being the rulers.

    How do you plan to do away with the tribalism and religious believers who don't want 'the people to rule themselves'?
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  8. #28
    ruserious ruserious is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimples 77 View Post
    Pseudo democracy?

    Is that a recognition that the government and the senate are appointed by the king?

    How is that 'the people ruling themselves'?
    Yes it is a recognition but also, and not that I approve, the chamber of deputies is democratically elected and holds the government to account. It is also one of the most accountable police forces in the world and one of the safest. Yes, not a full democracy, but probably the best run Arab State out there.
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  9. #29
    Honecker Honecker is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seanie Lemass View Post
    They armed them and trained their torturers. Even when they were used against local Communists as in Syria, Egypt and Iraq.
    Selling weapons to a country or training their personal does not necessarily mean you are preventing the people from governing themselves. I presume Seanie you are just as critical when Sinn Féin's new ally, Britain, sells weapons to Saudi Arabia and helps 'train' their forces?
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  10. #30
    Dimples 77 Dimples 77 is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seanie Lemass View Post
    Soviets and their allies helped them to see off coups and even armed them to fight wars. Nasser is classic example. There is not a chance he'd have survived without the Soviets. Moscow was so happy to have him as ally that they allowed him to slaughter the CPE. Indeed Egyptian Communists were torutred by people trained by the Stasi!
    Do you think that if these rulers had been removed that democracy would have broken out?

    Or wouldn't some other vested interest just have filled the vacuum?

    The point of some of us is that democracy isn't a natural concept for these folks. Some vested interest is always going to arise and rule on their own terms.
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