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  1. #1
    IrishFreedom IrishFreedom is offline

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    English Catholics and the Anglo-Irish Conflict

    Everyone today is failing to understand why two opposing sets of people catholic and protestant still regularly oppose each other in a war that died out a long time ago. That of course doesn't factor other things such as ethnicity, culture, politics, and constant undermining of each side by both sets of elites in london and dublin. However a group which rarely gets any mention pertaining to both partition and the subsequent troubles in Northern Ireland is the English 'Recuscant' Catholics, a group of wealthy aristocrats from the time of Elizabethan persecution that doled out money to avoid attending protestant services. This continued with the advent of William of Orange's penal laws (which affected irish catholics more than other groups) until emancipation was attained in 1825. One theory why English Catholics have remained loyal to a state which doesn't permit them to hold the prime ministers office and throne is because in the aftermath of the 1745 jacobite rebellion they sought to show loyalty to a state in spite of religious differences while factoring out the differences between them and Irish people in the anglo-irish conflict. I would love to know more thanks.
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  2. #2
    Dame_Enda Dame_Enda is offline
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    English Catholics were notable in their failure to lift a finger (save maybe 200 in Manchester) in 1745. Also most Jacobites - contrary to popular belief - were not even Catholics in the 18th century. They were disgruntled Tory Anglicans and Scots Episcopalians who were in the political-wilderness under the Hanoverian dynasty, who suspected them of Jacobitism and held a grudge because the Tories had pulled Britain out of the War of the Spanish Succession in 1713 in which the 2 countries had been allies supporting the unsuccessful Austrian claimant to the Spanish throne.

    In reality, only around 25% of Tory MPs in 1715 were Jacobites and even then they were not prepared to risk their necks for it. There was an abortive plan for risings in places like Cornwall under the cover of a "race meeting" but Hanoverian agents snuffed it out. James III might have become king if Queen Anne hadn't suddenly replaced the Lord Chamberlain with the Hanoverian (and ex-Catholic) Duke of Shrewsbury, whose office had a crucial role in the succession. There is evidenc the Tory govt appointed in 1710 (to take Britain out of the War of the Spanisj Succession) was appointing Jacobites to sensitive positions in the army, possibly to set aside the Act of Settlement. They knew the Hanoverians would dismiss them from office or put them in jail and wanted to avoid this. A couple of Tory leaders like the Earl of Oxford and Viscount Bolingbroke had Jacobite sympathies, and the later had to flee to France for plotting with James III, but he was eventually pardoned and returned home. He showed no sympathy for the 1745 rebellion.

    The Hanoverian secret service was at its peak in the 18th century and easily snuffed out English Jacobitism. Many English put country before religion. James III was seen as a tool of French interests and under the Stuarts, England had been weak and a vassal state of France. They didn't want to return to the authoritarianism of Charles I or James I/II. Anyway, some English Protestants protected their Catholic friends from the Penal Laws, and the aristocratic Howard family sat in the House of Lords while secretly (?) being Catholic. The priest hunts had died down in England after 1745. English colonialism preceded the Reformation.
    Last edited by Dame_Enda; 1st July 2013 at 02:16 AM.
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  3. #3
    General Urko General Urko is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by IrishFreedom View Post
    Everyone today is failing to understand why two opposing sets of people catholic and protestant still regularly oppose each other in a war that died out a long time ago. That of course doesn't factor other things such as ethnicity, culture, politics, and constant undermining of each side by both sets of elites in london and dublin. However a group which rarely gets any mention pertaining to both partition and the subsequent troubles in Northern Ireland is the English 'Recuscant' Catholics, a group of wealthy aristocrats from the time of Elizabethan persecution that doled out money to avoid attending protestant services. This continued with the advent of William of Orange's penal laws (which affected irish catholics more than other groups) until emancipation was attained in 1825. One theory why English Catholics have remained loyal to a state which doesn't permit them to hold the prime ministers office and throne is because in the aftermath of the 1745 jacobite rebellion they sought to show loyalty to a state in spite of religious differences while factoring out the differences between them and Irish people in the anglo-irish conflict. I would love to know more thanks.
    As far as I Know, Robert Nyrac was a Catholic! Re Catholicism in Britain, the indigenous Catholic community in England always regarded themselves as a bit above those Catholics who came from elsewhere to live there The Irish, Italians, Spanish and those from The Carribean! Nowadays there are large French and Spanish nominally Catholic populations in England also!
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  4. #4
    IrishFreedom IrishFreedom is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by General Urko View Post
    As far as I Know, Robert Nyrac was a Catholic! Re Catholicism in Britain, the indigenous Catholic community in England always regarded themselves as a bit above those Catholics who came from elsewhere to live there The Irish, Italians, Spanish and those from The Carribean! Nowadays there are large French and Spanish nominally Catholic populations in England also!
    I still view it like yesterday
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  5. #5
    General Urko General Urko is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by IrishFreedom View Post
    I still view it like yesterday
    What?
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  6. #6
    IrishFreedom IrishFreedom is offline

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    Quote Originally Posted by General Urko View Post
    What?
    English catholics thumbing their noses at us
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